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For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

economist.com

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Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#141

Post by TeMPOraL »

cornel_io wrote: post #127
mojuba wrote: post #56

Didn't read the article - no access, just some thoughts: the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH. Google has already set a precedent. However, unless it takes another unexpected turn, WFH is win-win-win: companies can save on office space and a bit on reduced salaries too; employees will have a healthier life and the freedom to live in cheaper locations; and finally WFH is good for the envi…

I've seen few unnecessary engineering manager positions, typically if anything companies have too few managers for the number of engineers. I constantly see those positions filled with people who may be great engineers but are trash managers, though. Companies can still get by, but they often don't even realize how much better they'd be if they prioritized management skill instead of mere years of experience (I'm loo…

Part of this is promotions. There's still no real parallel technical track for career advancement. Senior/Principal/Fellow track ended up being a management track in disguise, with all the managerial responsibilities and little of the authority.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#143

Post by brtkdotse »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #24

I'd hate to go back to working in an office. I live in the countryside now and it's great. However I realise it may not always be so easy. So: - I'm self employed. Foreign companies aren't going to set up a branch office just to employ me. Purchasing my services however is easy. - I've niched down to a business vertical, and I'm starting to niche down more technically as well. No more "I'm a full stack developer with…

Point 1 and 2 are right on the money.

Being self employed makes it easier for companies abroad to hire you - international invoicing is orders of magnitude easier than international hiring and usually comes from a different budget post.

Choosing a business vertical and running with it is the secret sauce to getting ahead. I’ve focused on insurance and pensions and being able to speak the same lingo as the business people on day one has been a game changer.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#144

Post by thaumasiotes »

Cookingboy wrote: post #76
DoreenMichele wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as companies are run by human there will be politics, favoritism, subjective impressions, subjective biases, and "out of sight, out of mind" selective memories. This paragraph kind of falls under "Never attribute to malice what is readily explained by stupidity." Those organic conversations may not happen in Slack but they can happen online. Most people don't actively foster them and many people may not know…

>Not knowing how isn't proof it can't be done. Human interaction skills falls into the category of things that knowledge doesn't even remotely guarantee outcome. You can teach a group of socially awkward and introvert people an entire 4 years course of how to be a charismatic socialite and most of them still won't become one. > Lots of things are currently happening in the world that were just science fiction not tha…

> You can teach a group of socially awkward and introvert people an entire 4 years course of how to be a charismatic socialite and most of them still won't become one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdhEIy-1CG8

(Very vulgar language in the video, but it makes the point well.)

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#145

Post by ceilingcorner »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

Just rent an office space or coworking desk. Problem solved.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#146

Post by axiolite »

Cookingboy wrote: post #94
RHSeeger wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I saw more sparks flying in one afternoon of social event than 3 months of planned video calls. I've seen more sparks fly from random discussions on Slack then I've ever seen in person. The ability to toss out random thoughts/idea at any time, and have others discuss/expand on them at their leisure is... powerful. Different modes of communication have different tradeoffs. There's nothing magical about in-person com…

>There's nothing magical about in-person communication. Other the fact that the brains of our entire specie has evolved for millions of years for this exact type of communication, there isn't anything magical, I guess... The information bandwidth of in-person communication is absolutely unparalleled, even if technology can now match in latency . Good luck replicating body language, eye contacts, subtle facial cues et…

> evolved for millions of years for this exact type of communication

A great many people identify themselves as introverts or antisocial, and would feel much better being excluded from all these neuron triggers.

> The information bandwidth of in-person communication is absolutely unparalleled

Yes, but that bandwidth is not all used productively but wasted on irrelevant bits which do not matter and likely distract from the topic. Implying that more bandwidth helps is suggesting that a book can only be a tiny bit as effective as a video...

> Good luck replicating body language, eye contacts, subtle facial cues etc with Slack messages.

I wouldn't try. Such things are usually unnecessary to the task at hand, and often detrimental. I'm not going to replicate the odor of what my co-workers ate for lunch either, nor other clues about their general hygiene, nor would I want to even if it was easy to do.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#147

Post by oblio »

laszlojamf wrote: post #100
Cookingboy wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and particularly skilled developers. skilled developers are much more common than people think. We get the impression of rarity precisely because we limit the search pool to local areas where very often many top companies are competing for the same talent pool. But at the end of the day there are a ton of super smart developers in EU, China, India, Japan, South America or even lower to mid COL areas in the U.S. who…

Technically correct, but even GitLab has a relatively short list of countries where they hire[0]. Legal requirement are probably going to continue to limit the talent pool for the foreseeable future. [0] - https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-group/employment-so...

Doing some simple math on your "limited talent pool" in the "short list of countries" brings the total population of those countries up to:

* ~900 million people for where they use companies (and probably in the low tens of million of possible employees)

* probably ~2 billion people for where they use contracts (and probably some more low tens of millions of possible employees)

Those are > pools of people.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#148

Post by Cookingboy »

onion2k wrote: post #131
Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

30 years ago people said it was human nature to socialize face-to-face, and that chatting on the Internet or playing video games with people remotely would never really catch on.

But guess what, chatting online and video calls augmented our communication, instead of replacing face to face.

The fact that even in this day and age, we still hold major online videogame tournaments in person shows you how important meatspace is. The International, the videogame tournament with the largest prize pool, was canceled last year when the entire game (Dota 2) was an online game. When it's held each year the tickets are always sold out and the arena is always full. You can watch everything online but it never stopped a fully packed arena.

So yeah, my point of face-to-face socialization will never be fully replaced actually gets even stronger support when you bring up videogames.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#149

Post by nsonha »

celticninja wrote: post #130
mbag wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another win is for the local economy, where remote workers will spend their money.

But that's really a transfer from the local economy around the office to the local economy around their home.

No it makes local economies possible where previously all the money was sucked into the nearest city

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#150

Post by peakaboo »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

> I can't wait to get back to the office.

> I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that)

> It also helps with my physical fitness. Now it is super hard to go to the gym in the morning just to come back home. When I commuted to work the gym was just on the way and it was easy to get out of the bed and go work out.

> Food is also big draw. Now I have to worry about what I eat every day and make my food. That's extra stress and cognitive pressure that is completely avoided when I get to just eat lunch from office's cafeteria.

> And of course other social aspects i.e. since I am already outside it is easier to do other stuff, but when I'm still in my underpants at home after work it is way harder to dress up and go do stuff.

These are the typical reasons I see for going to the office and they all boils down to you not wanting to make your own food, not having the self discipline to work out at home, and getting started in the morning.

I mean, it's fine, but I think it's helpful if we realize what going to the office is just making some people like yourself more comfortable, and others less comfortable.

Because to me, that commute is killing me, and getting interrupted in the office is wiping out any energy I have at all to commit to working. At home I have food I selected myself to eat and I have a nice twin monitor setup with a comfortable chair and silence to focus. My workout routine is body weight exercises right before lunch, and I have time to relax and have a shower as well since there is no pressure.

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