For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm • Hacker News Board

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#101

Post by nostrademons » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 7:27 AM UTC

brtkdotse wrote: post #85

Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

> They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. I’d wager that a vast majority of programming being done is internal LOB CRUD apps. Sure, management will gush over how “innovative” those CRUD apps are, but most programming jobs is just finding out where data resides, where it’s going and what Bootstrap template to…

Most of the profit is in the areas of programming that are not LOB CRUD apps. For the simple reason that profit accrues to firms that are differentiated, and if you can lump a bunch of work into a category, it is by definition not differentiated. Liquidity and compensation are inversely proportional: you make the most money in markets where it's hard to find people who do what you do.

Corollary: if you want to make money, you should seek to be in areas other than where the vast majority of programming is being done.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#102

Post by hughrr » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 7:28 AM UTC

Cookingboy wrote: post #68

cblconfederate wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you just gave an example why they shouldnt have held that meeting physically

Or rather that demonstrates the absolute value of physical meetings. If all day long Zoom calls and Slack messages could have led to spontaneous discussions/new initiatives like that they already would have, but they didn't, I saw more sparks flying in one afternoon of social event than 3 months of planned video calls. I firmly believe if Silicon Valley goes fully remote, then it will no longer stay the innovation en…

This is a niche mindset.

From experience spanning 30 years, good initiatives rarely start from spontaneous discussion. In fact most of the ones from that class of communication turn into dead ends or wandering off the path into the woods and burning money and time.

In fact I’d argue most of them come from thorough understanding of a problem and the requirements around it and a hell of a lot of work and research.

We’re not all startups and we’re not all trying to construct new problems to be solved.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#103

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 7:29 AM UTC

prashantsengar wrote: post #77

DoreenMichele wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as companies are run by human there will be politics, favoritism, subjective impressions, subjective biases, and "out of sight, out of mind" selective memories. This paragraph kind of falls under "Never attribute to malice what is readily explained by stupidity." Those organic conversations may not happen in Slack but they can happen online. Most people don't actively foster them and many people may not know…

> Not knowing how How? Genuinely want to know

[deleted]

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#104

Post by Cookingboy » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 7:29 AM UTC

Teever wrote: post #96

Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

> There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. As a person who lives in a geologically stable region I have to chuckle because it is entirely possible that this comment will age as terribly as that 'which country is best equipped to deal with a pandemic (2019) post that we saw recently. I don't deny the part of your comment about in person interactions being the foundat…

>all that is overridden by the notion that this must take place in Silicon Valley.

No you are missing the point. I never said it has to be in Silicon Valley. It's already happening in many places in the world. Google has offices in Silicon Valley and many other parts of the world, and the value the bring is the same: bring people who work together physically together.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#105

Post by acituan » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 7:31 AM UTC

Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

> There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new projects were the results of a casual lunch discussion even just random hallway chats

When was the last time you've used a big corp product that sounded like a water-cooler idea? Serendipitous innovation myth doesn't apply for these huge, hard-to-steer, profit-to-assets maximizing, financialized mega corps anymore. Nor creating 10 different messaging apps or torturing decade old products with growth hacking is innovation, it is cancerous growth born out of promotion-hacking. Water cooler schmoozing helps more with building the clout for that promotion than enhancing the productivity of the world.

They will make you work from office because they can, because that is easier on the managers and execs. They are doubling down on real estate because they have sunken costs, execs themselves probably have serious personal real estate positions and companies have a sizable chunk of h1b-captive employees that has to stick around anyway.

If anything, WFH had a positive impact on cutting through the bullshit. When speaking has more friction, the actual work has to do the talking, and that is a positive thing. You don't have to deeply enact a state of belief in other people's self-importance, as you get to say "oh fuck off" out loud when the meeting is off.

Going to the office is like going to the church of whatever objective function a company holds dear. You're surrounded by it for hours, and can't blaspheme around true believers and kool aid drinkers around that water cooler. At home, you're homed in a space that reminds who you are, your ultimate sovereignty and all the objective functions of your life, work being but one.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#106

Post by velcii » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 7:31 AM UTC

Cookingboy wrote: post #94

RHSeeger wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I saw more sparks flying in one afternoon of social event than 3 months of planned video calls. I've seen more sparks fly from random discussions on Slack then I've ever seen in person. The ability to toss out random thoughts/idea at any time, and have others discuss/expand on them at their leisure is... powerful. Different modes of communication have different tradeoffs. There's nothing magical about in-person com…

>There's nothing magical about in-person communication. Other the fact that the brains of our entire specie has evolved for millions of years for this exact type of communication, there isn't anything magical, I guess... The information bandwidth of in-person communication is absolutely unparalleled, even if technology can now match in latency . Good luck replicating body language, eye contacts, subtle facial cues et…

>The information bandwidth of in-person communication is absolutely unparalleled

Not really, if you are not interested in communicating emotions or not interested in playing politics as part of the said communication..

In fact, in technical discussion, not conveying too much emotion is a great advantage..

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#107

Post by xaduha » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 7:32 AM UTC

brtkdotse wrote: post #85

Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

> They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. I’d wager that a vast majority of programming being done is internal LOB CRUD apps. Sure, management will gush over how “innovative” those CRUD apps are, but most programming jobs is just finding out where data resides, where it’s going and what Bootstrap template to…

It's corporate speak, many are so immersed in it they don't realize it. Some people like power just as much as they like money and they don't like losing it.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#108

Post by dheera » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 7:32 AM UTC

Teever wrote: post #96

Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

> There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. As a person who lives in a geologically stable region I have to chuckle because it is entirely possible that this comment will age as terribly as that 'which country is best equipped to deal with a pandemic (2019) post that we saw recently. I don't deny the part of your comment about in person interactions being the foundat…

> What the hell is America going to do if there is a cataclysmic event that takes out this region?

The east coast isn't much better off either. If a tsunami hits the Pacific, there are enough hills and mountains between the coast and say, Palo Alto or Mountain View, that not that much will happen. Half of SF is probably safe from tsunamis too just because of the high hills. Corporate offices are probably built earthquake-proof already. Houses, not so much, but hey, the corporations will be around.

The east coast, not so much. Boston and NYC are flat, at sea level, and would be gone if an asteroid were to crash into the Atlantic. Nuclear power stations in Newark would become the next Fukushima disaster.

Most ancient cities were not built on the coast, for good reasons. It seems to be a relatively recent fad around the world. Take China for example, because it's an ancient civilization. Shanghai and Shenzhen, are on the coast, but are cities built extremely recently. The historical population capitals of China (Beijing, Nanjing, Xi'an, etc.) were never on the coast.

Likewise, Rome, Madrid, Cairo, Paris, London, Kyoto -- none of these cities are on the coast.

The USA, on the other hand, is a relatively new kid on the block in the grand scheme of civilization, has yet to learn, and put all of its eggs on the coast. :-/ That's the bigger problem IMO.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#109

Post by jcims » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 7:33 AM UTC

Cookingboy wrote: post #98

jcims wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You can teach a group of socially awkward and introvert people an entire 4 years course of how to be a charismatic socialite and most of them still won't become one. That’s why I’m not missing out on the A-team bullshit by working remotely, I wasn’t the type to land it when I was in the office. I ate lunch at my desk and got the fuck out when I was done for the day. I’m not wired for all of that.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, as long as you are happy and you get what you want out of your job. My entire argument is that for most people, they will unlikely be having their cake and eat it too. But if you never cared for eating cake, then all the powers to you.

My primary issue working from home is that I actually love cake. I'm still up about fifteen pounds from when I would head into the office every day. :)

I think you stated your point well and I can't disagree with it at all. Something about this subject just gets me spun up.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#110

Post by systemvoltage » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 7:33 AM UTC

Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

Our company's productivity has plummetted after the pandemic, specifically right after the lockdowns in Bay Area started in March 2020, details: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28111095

I personally love WFH but people that deny the benefits of in-person work are deluded or intentionally playing it down.