The arguments in this comment section have been rehashed so many times on HN now it is becoming hilarious. Who would have thought that office vs remote is the emacs vs vim of the 2020s.
We need a evil mode
For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
61–70 of 461 posts
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ah, that's easy. The negotiating power of a company, which is practically a group of people, is much higher than that of employees, which are just 1 person. A big company loses what? 0.00001% of its revenue if it doesn't hire the right person for a specific position? An employee loses 100% of their revenue if they don't get hired or get fired. So companies can pretty much do what they want (up to a point where they c…
This is mistaken. Companies need good employees, and particularly skilled developers. If you're a skilled developer, I urge you to exercise your negotiation power. You have much more than you think. The problem is, most people aren't willing to walk from job offers. Walk. There are more.
> and particularly skilled developers.
skilled developers are much more common than people think. We get the impression of rarity precisely because we limit the search pool to local areas where very often many top companies are competing for the same talent pool.
But at the end of the day there are a ton of super smart developers in EU, China, India, Japan, South America or even lower to mid COL areas in the U.S. who are more than happy to take 50% of Silicon Valley pay and just do as well of a job.
At the very end of the day vast majority of software engineering is far from rocket science, and you don't need someone who can re-invent MapReduce out of thin air just to refactor that clusterfuck of Redux code.
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#63Regardless of jobs containing "onsite" or "remote", the metric that really matters is - how many people are actually applying... Companies can advertise "onsite" all they want, but from all the stories I've heard about how hard it is to find good developers, and how developers are leaving their work-from-home jobs as soon as they're told to come into the office, you have to draw the conclusion that it's a buyer's mar…
This is exactly right. It's not just that the firms can choose among all the world's remote devs, the reverse is also true. I've been turned down when offering remote jobs to devs who found something more attractive, it happens and the market is a two way negotiation.
Also take into account the network effect...
Every recruiter that calls me, I'll only pass onto friends if it's remote because I know nobody will even consider onsite. There's a hidden filter effect happening right now that's not being considered.
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#64As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…
I think you just gave an example why they shouldnt have held that meeting physically
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't get your reasoning on why you expect that people will have to take a pay cut for working remotely. Would have thought it would be the opposite. Office space, hardware and energy cost a bit.
Ah, that's easy. The negotiating power of a company, which is practically a group of people, is much higher than that of employees, which are just 1 person. A big company loses what? 0.00001% of its revenue if it doesn't hire the right person for a specific position? An employee loses 100% of their revenue if they don't get hired or get fired. So companies can pretty much do what they want (up to a point where they c…
I feel like this underestimates the cost of someone leaving. Presumably that person was worth the money and necessary before and will need to be replaced. The replacement will be less valuable (lacking the relevant knowledge) and cost a lot of money to recruit.
I think companies often undervalue the cost of annoying employees in random trivial ways, creating the nudge that causes them to shop around for another job. This is not a trivial annoyance and I understand that the tech job market is extremely hot at the moment so causing people to apply to other jobs and find companies willing to increase their pay by a lot does not sound like a smart business decision.
But maybe I’m wrong or Google have some great internal productivity data that makes this incentivising all worth it to them.
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#66Didn't read the article - no access, just some thoughts: the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH. Google has already set a precedent. However, unless it takes another unexpected turn, WFH is win-win-win: companies can save on office space and a bit on reduced salaries too; employees will have a healthier life and the freedom to live in cheaper locations; and finally WFH is good for the envi…
Agree on most counts apart from the efficient communication angle. Purely anecdotal but I find that the number of meetings has grown significantly since constant WFH became the norm. In the past, most meetings required a meeting room whereas now, as long as the meeting organiser can see that most people have an open space in their calendar, a meeting can be arranged.
Not an insurmountable problem but I find myself protesting about this regularly.
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't get your reasoning on why you expect that people will have to take a pay cut for working remotely. Would have thought it would be the opposite. Office space, hardware and energy cost a bit.
Ah, that's easy. The negotiating power of a company, which is practically a group of people, is much higher than that of employees, which are just 1 person. A big company loses what? 0.00001% of its revenue if it doesn't hire the right person for a specific position? An employee loses 100% of their revenue if they don't get hired or get fired. So companies can pretty much do what they want (up to a point where they c…
In software engineering the employee probably doesn't lose his revenua since he/she is likely already employed, and if not, will likely have other options.
In reality the supply and demand of employees of particular type determines the "negotiating power", and this can change over time.
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#68As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…
I think you just gave an example why they shouldnt have held that meeting physically
Or rather that demonstrates the absolute value of physical meetings.
If all day long Zoom calls and Slack messages could have led to spontaneous discussions/new initiatives like that they already would have, but they didn't, I saw more sparks flying in one afternoon of social event than 3 months of planned video calls.
I firmly believe if Silicon Valley goes fully remote, then it will no longer stay the innovation engine of the entire tech industry. Startups in China will eat us alive. You simply can't replicate the energy of Haidian District or Shenzhen with group messages.
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#69Didn't read the article - no access, just some thoughts: the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH. Google has already set a precedent. However, unless it takes another unexpected turn, WFH is win-win-win: companies can save on office space and a bit on reduced salaries too; employees will have a healthier life and the freedom to live in cheaper locations; and finally WFH is good for the envi…
Another win is for the local economy, where remote workers will spend their money.
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#70As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…
As long as companies are run by human there will be politics, favoritism, subjective impressions, subjective biases, and "out of sight, out of mind" selective memories.
This paragraph kind of falls under "Never attribute to malice what is readily explained by stupidity."
Those organic conversations may not happen in Slack but they can happen online. Most people don't actively foster them and many people may not know how.
Not knowing how isn't proof it can't be done. Lots of things are currently happening in the world that were just science fiction not that long ago.