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Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

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Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#101

Post by raphlinus »

peteradio wrote: post #77
raphlinus wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this thread is catnip for the antivax contingent that reliably appears, but this argument has several problems. First, our vaccines provide a stronger immune response than infection, as has been well documented by now[1]. Vaccination on top of prior infection boosts the response[2]. Second, the harm from the vaccine is minimal, and comparing it with an amputation is ridiculous (in spite of the large number of…

[1] is not generally supportive of your very broad statement. You must qualify you statement with some indication of this stated limitation: "carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein"

It is one datapoint among many, but I found it interesting because it is based on careful biological experimentation and directly compares immune response from vaccination and prior infection. Another relevant quote: "Importantly, the vaccine-elicited antibodies targeted a broader range of places on the RBD than those elicited by natural infection." This is not an intuitively obvious result.

But, since it was asked, here are more studies that support the broader point:

* https://www.contagionlive.com/view/immune-response-from-mrna... describes a study directly addressing the question, and with impressive results.

* https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/covid-19-vaccine-generates-i... didn't directly compare against prior infection, but this is discussed briefly and there is strong support in favor of protection from vaccines.

* https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/marty-makary/92434 is a discussion with a virologist (not peer reviewed science).

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#102

Post by jjtheblunt »

jron wrote: post #84
Woodrow503 wrote: post #20

Question: I’ve got the vaccine. I get a breakthrough case. Is this a “best case” scenario for durable immunity?

This seems like the most important unasked question. Common sense would suggest the best case would be vaccination followed by repeated exposure to the virus yet hardly anyone is talking about it.

i wonder if that's what normally happens in nature across many viruses. like a primed immune system exposed to a new variant runs a minor "software update" now and then.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#103

Post by [deleted] »

_Microft wrote: post #85
peteradio wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[1] is not generally supportive of your very broad statement. You must qualify you statement with some indication of this stated limitation: "carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein"

I couldn't put the quote into context properly, so in case you are also wondering, here is the full quote: "The new evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein compared to antibodies acquired from an infection." , excerpt from the article

[deleted]

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#104

Post by anonuser123456 »

_Microft wrote: post #93
anonuser123456 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The immunity acquired from infection may be more robust against variants since a broader set of antibodies are produced.

A broader set of antibodies does not necessarily have to be beneficial. They might be targeting parts of the virus that could change without it losing its function. The spike protein seems to be close to indispensable for this virus. Targetting it specifically instead of just 'something', might therefore be the preferable thing.

Right, but it is harder for an organism to make multiple adaptations at once. Natural infection produces antibodies that target the spike protein as well as other sites. To evade immunity, the virus would need to change both sites.

It is very clear that the vaccine is putting selective pressure on spike protein evolution. Having alternative targets makes it harder to escape.

We currently don’t know if those other sites are beneficial or not. Sometimes they can even be counter productive (ADE, but we don’t really see that yet?)

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#105

Post by BrianOnHN »

ebiester wrote: post #88
unanswered wrote: post #26

Real facts that people won't like to hear: anyone who thought differently probably needs to retake a high school biology class.

The problem is that you think a high school biology class is sufficient to understand the broader implications. What is the limitation of this study? For example, in the context of the paper, "immunity" means that your immune system mounts an immediate response. Do the antibodies created attack variants equally effectively relative to vaccines? Are they better? Worse? This paper is one data point. Your high school bi…

This is a great example of the Dunning–Kruger effect[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#106

Post by pixl97 »

iamadog129038 wrote: post #87
bitexploder wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is shilling vaccines. We use the "wonder of our natural immune system" effectively with the vaccine without being a public health risk to everyone around us by skipping it.

Interestingly, we're putting unnatural selection pressure on the viruses by leveraging vaccines that are leaky, this has in at least one example been shown to produce a deadlier pathogen for unvaccinated. So, maybe you had ought to be a little more skeptical about your risk assessments when the data isn't yet in and may never be until it is. And as for the philosophical conundrum, I'd posit that it's far safer to mai…

This is a pretty bad take. No vaccine has 100% coverage. Most of the time we're talking about 85-90% protection rate, with some low possibility of mild infectious contagion.

The particularly ignorant take on your part is ignoring 1918 to 1919 change in that flu. It 'naturally' became far more deadly with no vaccine needed.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#107

Post by krona »

542458 wrote: post #45
mercora wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how easy is it to test for these antibodies for a layman? could people actually easily get tested prior to considering a vaccination?

The test is easy, but has a relatively high false positive rate. It also may use up lab resources that could be put to other uses. The other wrinkle (and possibly the most important one) is that we don’t want to create a system where antivaxxers have an incentive to deliberately infect themselves and/or others.

> The test is easy, but has a relatively high false positive rate.

The FDA approved Roche serology test has a specificity greater than 99.8% and sensitivity of 100% (14 Days post-PCR confirmation) https://www.roche.com/media/releases/med-cor-2020-05-03.htm

I wouldn't say 0.02% is a particularly high FP rate.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#108

Post by rubatuga »

eightysixfour wrote: post #95
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #42

Not to disagree with the effectiveness of immunity gained by getting Covid-19, but also: "The evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants ... compared to antibodies acquired from an infection." https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera... "Vaccination offers longer, stronger immunity" https://www.jhsph.edu/cov…

To add to the list: "Kentucky residents who were not vaccinated had 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with those who were fully vaccinated (odds ratio [OR] = 2.34; 95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.58–3.47). These findings suggest that among persons with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, full vaccination provides additional protection against reinfection." https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm?s_c…

Observational evidence of course, meaning plenty of confounders.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#109

Post by rubatuga »

eightysixfour wrote: post #92
briefcomment wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a strawman. Can you instead address this particular bucket: people who have had Covid, and are now wondering if they are as immune as they can hope for, considering all other available interventions.

This study shows that those who have had COVID but are unvaccinated have 2.3x the risk of reinfection compared to those who had COVID and are vaccinated. 246 patients, 492 controls. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm?s_cid=mm...

This isn’t a randomized control trial, meaning you have tons of confounders.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#110

Post by BrianOnHN »

rossdavidh wrote: post #59

...more or less like most infections, as has been known for centuries. And yet, due to the current "anything which doesn't make people more fearful must be suppressed" attitude, this kind of thing is news. Or would be, if the U.S. newsmedia were willing to report it, which I suspect they will not.

Is this offering anything more substantive than you own bias and suspicions?

Is there any response that could get you to consider that the comment "anything which doesn't make people more fearful must be suppressed" is as harmful or even more harmful than the media itself?

Asking because I'd like to better understand how to address people with your beliefs in the future.

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