Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

nzz.ch

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 374 posts

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#261

Post by chmod600 »

_fat_santa wrote: post #240
amrcnimgrnt wrote: post #175

To be clear, what happened to this kid is horrible and just demonstrates that we have to get serious on this problem. However this comment annoyed me: "«I'm in Switzerland, not China,» Gerber replied. «I can say what I want here.»" You can tell this kid grew up in the la-la land that is the West, particularly Europe. I find this comment to be an infuriating mix anivete and patronizing. For the naïveté Switzerland is…

I'm a bit conflicted on this story for the same reason. One the one hand I agree what happened to him was horrible, but on the other hand it's almost to be expected. The kid was enrolled in a Chinese university and decided to criticize the CCP on the internet under his own name. So yeah what happened to him was horrible, but not unexpected.

This news is incremental, sure, but still news. If stuff like this had been happening 20 years ago, many countries would probably have a very different trading posture with China.

It's important to report on this kind of thing once in a while, even if no individual instance is shocking. It builds up into a major problem.

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#262

Post by bobthechef »

belter wrote: post #244
amrcnimgrnt wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't suggest anything, generally I avoid suggestion. It's pusillanimous. Switzerland has a lot of freedom, certainly compared to China and other European countries. It's without a doubt my favorite country, one I'd want to live in. But, as we're finding out, the "free speech protections" that we drone on about are only as good as we are willing to insist on. "freedom of speech is protected in this country" is mea…

Sounds wonderful. Would then my religious convictions be protected in Switzerland according to law or does my deity has to contact the Swiss government somehow ? Because I am a Pastafarian, and I can't stand the abuse and mockery anymore. I was thinking of emigrating to Switzerland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Both you and I know this is provocation, so there's no point in pretending otherwise. But sure, it is an argument in favor of the confessional state. Liberal societies are de facto confessional states anyway, it's just that the liberal religion (which Rawls can't quite seem to acknowledge as one, but deploys without scruples) by which all others are measured and restricted is not named as one.

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#263

Post by usr1106 »

_fat_santa wrote: post #240
amrcnimgrnt wrote: post #175

To be clear, what happened to this kid is horrible and just demonstrates that we have to get serious on this problem. However this comment annoyed me: "«I'm in Switzerland, not China,» Gerber replied. «I can say what I want here.»" You can tell this kid grew up in the la-la land that is the West, particularly Europe. I find this comment to be an infuriating mix anivete and patronizing. For the naïveté Switzerland is…

I'm a bit conflicted on this story for the same reason. One the one hand I agree what happened to him was horrible, but on the other hand it's almost to be expected. The kid was enrolled in a Chinese university and decided to criticize the CCP on the internet under his own name. So yeah what happened to him was horrible, but not unexpected.

It's not suprising that China acts like this.

The message of the article is that a renowned Swiss university cowardly bows to China's oppression instead of guaranteing their students (not legally, but morally their) their democratic rights. Cynics might say not suprising either. Switzerland is somewhat infamous for its silent Nazi support while formally neutral in WWII.

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#264

Post by s1artibartfast »

dash2 wrote: post #147
curiousgal wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, if I were a professor and my PhD student was overly critical of the US online, I too would distance myself. Visa applications are hard enough as they are.

Is there is any evidence that any PhD student has ever found it hard to get a US visa because of criticizing the US or US policy?

There have been cases of US deportations for even having US critical posts in your feed without making them.

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019/8/27/incoming-freshm...

https://techcrunch.com/2019/09/02/denied-entry-united-states...

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#265

Post by slapfrog »

jjoonathan wrote: post #239
amrcnimgrnt wrote: post #175

To be clear, what happened to this kid is horrible and just demonstrates that we have to get serious on this problem. However this comment annoyed me: "«I'm in Switzerland, not China,» Gerber replied. «I can say what I want here.»" You can tell this kid grew up in the la-la land that is the West, particularly Europe. I find this comment to be an infuriating mix anivete and patronizing. For the naïveté Switzerland is…

Wow. Patronizing: you know what's patronizing? The notion that this kid simply doesn't understand the realpolitik. Of course he does: it just punched him in the face. He's fighting it. I respect him for that. Infuriating: you know what's infuriating? The person who claims to share the values this guy is standing up for but can't stop trash-talking him. Naïveté: you know what's naive? Thinking that rolling over and ac…

The GP reads like concern-trolling more than anything else. It doesn't seem sincere to me at all.

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#266

Post by Cederfjard »

bobthechef wrote: post #237
jkhdigital wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You want freedom of speech, fine, but you have to fight to get it and keep it alive. This needs to be said more often… rights cannot be reduced to a “declaration” or a “bill”. They are social constructs that wither away and die without constant social reinforcement, both formal and informal.

Rights aren't "social constructs" if they're natural rights, that is, those that follow from the nature of what it means to be a human being. Those are recognized, not "constructed". These must be distinguished from those things that are merely asserted as rights and that people like to make up to suit their agendas. But, given that, natural rights can be violated and fail to be protected from those who would do so.…

> Rights aren't "social constructs" if they're natural rights, that is, those that follow from the nature of what it means to be a human being.

Are you saying that you have achieved perfect understanding of this? I think that implies a sophistication way beyond were we are as a species today.

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#267

Post by arey_abhishek »

It feels like a bit of overreaction from the professor, unless there were other emails or calls from the Chinese government.

If it was just one email, it could also be possible that she just wanted him to find a different advisor and didn't realize that breaking her advisory relationship with the student would leave him in the lurch and without a PHD.

All in all a really bad incident for the kid.

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#268

Post by nelsondev »

jeswin wrote: post #254
quickthrowman wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Patronizing: you know what's patronizing? The notion that this kid just doesn't understand the realpolitik. Of course he does: it just punched him in the face. He's fighting it. I respect him for that. I disagree. His Chinese girlfriend was begging him to stop, but he carried on. It’s either hubris or not realizing what China is willing to do to stop people from criticizing it. He was also enrolled in a Chinese uni…

So should he just shut up, then? It's scary if most people feel that way. There was also no risk to his GF. At worst, the relationship ends - it's not like the CCP is going to go after her (she did ask him to stop).

How do you know there was no risk to the GF? The article mentions she asked him to stop because she feared retaliation.

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#269

Post by belter »

bobthechef wrote: post #262
belter wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds wonderful. Would then my religious convictions be protected in Switzerland according to law or does my deity has to contact the Swiss government somehow ? Because I am a Pastafarian, and I can't stand the abuse and mockery anymore. I was thinking of emigrating to Switzerland. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Both you and I know this is provocation, so there's no point in pretending otherwise. But sure, it is an argument in favor of the confessional state. Liberal societies are de facto confessional states anyway, it's just that the liberal religion (which Rawls can't quite seem to acknowledge as one, but deploys without scruples) by which all others are measured and restricted is not named as one.

I up voted your comment...

Re: Swiss Ph.D student’s dismissal spotlights China’s influence

#270

Post by HWR_14 »

eplanit wrote: post #258
esquivalience wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another reading of this is: "freedom of speech is protected in this country". And that is true, not the fairytale you suggest it to be.

But, many (predominantly on the Left) are now seeing liberal free speech as outmoded. Though he's not a serious person, former Prince Harry (who, with his wife, use their celebrity to champion Progressive causes) recently called the 1st Amendment "bonkers"[1]. Even The Atlantic publishes its doubts about it.[2] My stepfather grew up Jewish in Germany in the early 20th century. He was 13 years old when Hitler became C…

> even former Prince Harry recently called the 1st Amendment "bonkers"

Shocking!

I'm starting to think we Americans are going to have to overthrow the British monarchy to protect our rights!

> Even The Atlantic publishes its doubts about it.

Unlike the Prince Henry thing (who cares), I read this one.

The Atlantic says the exact opposite of what you say it does. It starts and ends firmly defending American style free speech. Full stop.

In the middle it talks about how European style free speech allows for suppressing hate speech, and that there are costs and benefits to that approach. He explains that calls for such restrictions here cannot be dismissed out of hand as insane but that they have to be contended with. He then does so, arguing against restrictions. "Free Speech isn't Free" is just pointing out the often overlooked costs to totally free speech.

I hesitate to call people bad-faith actors, but in general the "article says the literal opposite of what I claim it does" is a giant red flag.

(Edit: I went back and read the Prince thing. I dismissed it because "who cares", but then I figured if you misrepresented the Atlantic article that badly I should check it out. What he was talking about was American vs. British libel laws, not general free speech. In Britain, it is much easier to sue for libel to the point that celebrities often sue international publications there. This protection in Britain especially protects politicians and royalty. In the US, it is almost impossible to win a libel suit against a news organization, especially if the person suing is a public official. This is based on New York Times vs. Sullivan, a first amendment case. )

Post reply on HN