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In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

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Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's entire memo sounds completely tone deaf and delusional. It's shocking to me that they don't even acklowege the critisms and fully ignore them. It would be one thing if they said that the potential implications are worth it, but they don't even acklowege them.

Why is it shocking at this point? It's Apple and Apple will be Apple. Leopard can't change its spots.

As has been mentioned in other threads, Apple did not write the memo, a spokesperson from NCMEC did.

EDIT: hmm, scratch that. Confusingly, it was an internal memo from Apple quoting a separate memo from NCMEC.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#32
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it shocking at this point? It's Apple and Apple will be Apple. Leopard can't change its spots.

As has been mentioned in other threads, Apple did not write the memo, a spokesperson from NCMEC did. EDIT: hmm, scratch that. Confusingly, it was an internal memo from Apple quoting a separate memo from NCMEC.

An Apple VP wrote the memo. He included a note from an NCMEC director.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They really did write that. And fall back to “think about the children”. I know the word dystopian gets overused, but it really fits here. Wow.

If by "They" you mean Apple, then they did not. As noted by jsnell, and properly attributed in the linked article, it was written by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children

It's true that if you retweet someone else's message, then you are not the original author of the message. But Apple leadership vetted the letter and passed it around staff, hoping that their employees would find it as "incredibly motivating" as they did.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#34

To me it is clear they are bowing to government pressure to add this feature. I cannot imagine any other reason they would go from drawing so much attention to privacy of their platform in their communication and general PR around the launch of the privacy labels in the app store to then make this change which is a clear violation of their user's privacy.

Cynical me thinks this is some "deal" they made with DoJ to not have the FBI sue them any more for backdoors in such a public fashion. As long as they work with them in manners that give the FBI info they want while claiming to protect user privacy compared to just throwing open the doors, Apple thinks they are saving face.???

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#35
post #28

How long till China asks Apple to scan iPhones of Chinese citizens for pro-democracy files and images? Apple can no longer claim it isn’t possible. How long till Apple gets a secret warrant from the FISA courts to scan for a certain file on all US iPhones? Apple can’t claim it isn’t possible. It could be happening now. We wouldn’t know because all we have is a list of hashes.

If you sync with iCloud this already could happen, because photos are not end to end encrypted.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#37

I don't understand the claim that this system improves their ability to detect anything. If it's really true that the system only works on data uploaded to icloud then apple could have easily just done all the scanning in the cloud, because icloud is not end-to-end encrypted. In that case, all this feature does is move the computational cost of scanning from Apple's datacenters to Apple's users, saving Apple money an…

Photos are encrypted in Apple's technical summary.[1] [1] https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

Photos in iCloud photos are "encrypted". They are not end-to-end encrypted. Apple retains the keys. Apple can and does decrypt the photos for various purposes including for law enforcement. The encryption poses no obstacle to scanning the photos in the cloud.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#38
Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works. The reality is more nuanced: People understand exactly how it works, and how it works is that it is turn-key onboard spyware, that Apple pinky-swears isn't being used wrong today.

For example if the scope/mission expands (e.g. foreign governments), suddenly you've created a drag-net for whatever "badness" is of interest in whatever today's moral panic is (e.g. terrorism after 9/11). Plus perceptual hashing, by its very design, is created to be less precise than traditional cryptographic hashing.

A cryptographic hash + file size combo is unlikely to have a false positive within our lifetime (and it has been used successful by multiple companies to combat CP). The interesting thing about a perceptual hash is that the closer the source material is to the banned material in terms of actual content (e.g. nudity), the more likely for a false positive.

Therefore, if Apple does mess up via false-positive and manually review your material, it is more likely to be sensitive private materials (involving consenting adult(s), not CP) because that is what the perceptual hashes are looking for similarities to.

PS - If you think this concept cannot happen in a Western country, see the UK's internet filters as a textbook example. Originally started to fight CP, and now used to fight a ton of other stuff too with more proposals every year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_blocking_in_the_United_Kin...

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#39
post #19

The NCMEC director claimed "many thousands of sexually exploited victimized children will be rescued" because of this system. It can't detect new abuse images if I understand correctly. And don't most arrests happen after a victim talks to another adult? Or someone notices signs? Are many thousands of active child molesters discovered through scanning online photos?

NCMEC is clearly lying (for one thing, CSAM users will stop using iPhone/iCloud for CSAM), but the theory is that someone who collects images is likely to (a) have some new not yet indexed images in the collection, which can be investigated, (b) might he abusing children. IMO posession of CSAM should be legal but heavily regulated, so that users who don't want to hurt children (probably will most of them) cooperate w…

I'm skeptical most people who download child pornography are active child molesters. Or most active child molesters distribute evidence of their crimes. And wouldn't NCMEC collect new images from the most popular distribution points?

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#40
To me, my biggest issue with scanning user data is accountability and transparency;

Who will audit false passive cases including reasons for unlocking data ? How false positive cases will be investigated and by whom ? (in case it was intentional data unlocking, eg. corporate espionage) How "victims" of false positive cases will be notified ?

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