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Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

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Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#831

Post by grumblenum »

walkhour wrote: post #795
grumblenum wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It isnt about money, I am juwt ashamed to have an American passport and know my tax dollars are being spent on war and murder in the name of christ and oil profits. You know Bush isn't president anymore, right? That hasn't been a a popular (and I would say erroneous, even when it was popular) talking point for more than a decade. I do find it interesting that expatriation trends seem to pivot in years with president…

> You know Bush isn't president anymore, right? That hasn't been a a popular (and I would say erroneous, even when it was popular) talking point for more than a decade. The US performed military operations in eight different countries just during the Obama administration, some of the conflicts where not inherited, like the war in Syria and Yemen. Those wars were payed by the US citizens regardless of whether they agr…

Obama invaded Syria "in the name of Christ and oil profits"? That justification was a myth, even when the Trotskyites-cum-Conservatives asserted it as truth 15 years ago.

Creating a belt of failed states in Central Asia has been a long-standing policy, if Wesley Clark is to be believed. I can only speculate what the real goals are, but "because Jesus" or "because Bush is dumb" was always fodder for the low-info crowd who watched the Daily Show.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#832

Post by masklinn »

charonn0 wrote: post #828
masklinn wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t need to be rich to move out of the US.

Not according to the complaints here.

Most of the complaints are that being an expat US citizen is:

1. a right pain in the ass, because you have to fill US taxes even when you don't reside in the US, work with the US, and haven't set foot there in years.

2. a right pain in the ass because you have to declare local welfare as income to the US government

3. a right pain in the ass because taxes being so much simpler in most other countries means accountants is a much rarer career very much specialised for extremely high income, far beyond your means, and most of them don't know and can't help with US taxes anyway

4. a right pain in the ass because things like FATCA means most financial institution have decided it's just not worth interacting with US citizens and will refuse to deal with them — this can make it very difficult to function at any sort of level especially as countries progressively increase their cashlessness

5. a right pain in the ass because even if you decide you've had enough and decide to renounce it's expensive and complicated

I'm sure I'm missing a bunch as I'm not a US citizen let alone a US expat.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#833

Post by remir »

fourthwaveska wrote: post #805
remir wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take this personnaly as I'm not targeting you specifically with my comment: but I don't know how I feel about wealthy foreigners coming to a place, buy property and extract rent from locals, who may not even be able to afford ownership in the first place.

> Please don't take this personnaly as I'm not targeting you specifically with my comment: but I don't know how I feel about wealthy foreigners coming to a place, buy property and extract rent from locals, who may not even be able to afford ownership in the first place. Weird statement. Don't worry, I wouldn't take your uncertainty about your own feelings personally. However, I do understand you, and this is somethin…

I guess the line could be at: I made money in the US and benefited from being a US citizen, but now I pack my things and go live elsewhere so I can benefit from the wealth differential in that country and extract rent from people there.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#834

Post by simonh »

emodendroket wrote: post #816
simonh wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty easily dealt with through residency thresholds. We do this in the UK, counting people resident for tax purposes if they spend more than so many days in the UK in a given year. I would be very surprised if the US doesn't already do this to determine non-citizens tax status.

That's how state taxes are dealt with in the US and a number of people go to great pains to make sure they stay exactly the number of days in some high-tax state that lets them skirt liability. I'd be surprised if similar things didn't happen in Europe but I don't pretend to be as familiar with what goes on there.

Sure, people definitely skirt around the edge if the rules. They’ll do that wherever you set the thresholds though.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#835

Post by FredPret »

trasz wrote: post #788
FredPret wrote: post #761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is thinking that. It was an example by the other commenter of a free and valuable service provided by the government as part of their side of the bargain

A service which is always provided for free - there are no countries that invoice victims. It’s the fact that the commenter assumed it might not be free that’s frightening.

That’s the whole point, it’s always free. The commenter pointed out that it’s a valuable service that is always free as part of the social contract. You can be frightened by this if you’re really determined to be, but no sinister dystopia was implied.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#836

Post by fourthwaveska »

remir wrote: post #833
fourthwaveska wrote: post #805

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please don't take this personnaly as I'm not targeting you specifically with my comment: but I don't know how I feel about wealthy foreigners coming to a place, buy property and extract rent from locals, who may not even be able to afford ownership in the first place. Weird statement. Don't worry, I wouldn't take your uncertainty about your own feelings personally. However, I do understand you, and this is somethin…

I guess the line could be at: I made money in the US and benefited from being a US citizen, but now I pack my things and go live elsewhere so I can benefit from the wealth differential in that country and extract rent from people there.

Hmm. So it is OK for me to say make all of my money in San Francisco then go buy property in much poorer Detroit?

Now what if about 1/3 of that income came from my wife who is from a poorer country than Spain?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#837

Post by fourthwaveska »

grumblenum wrote: post #831
walkhour wrote: post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know Bush isn't president anymore, right? That hasn't been a a popular (and I would say erroneous, even when it was popular) talking point for more than a decade. The US performed military operations in eight different countries just during the Obama administration, some of the conflicts where not inherited, like the war in Syria and Yemen. Those wars were payed by the US citizens regardless of whether they agr…

Obama invaded Syria "in the name of Christ and oil profits"? That justification was a myth, even when the Trotskyites-cum-Conservatives asserted it as truth 15 years ago. Creating a belt of failed states in Central Asia has been a long-standing policy, if Wesley Clark is to be believed. I can only speculate what the real goals are, but "because Jesus" or "because Bush is dumb" was always fodder for the low-info crowd…

> Obama invaded Syria "in the name of Christ and oil profits"? That justification was a myth, even when the Trotskyites-cum-Conservatives asserted it as truth 15 years ago.

Citation needed.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#838

Post by ggggtez »

fourthwaveska wrote: post #804
boulos wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a nit, but the San Francisco median household income is around $112k [1] for the same year as the $68k you mentioned [2]. I think 50% more counts as “much above the national figure”. [1] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/sanfranciscocit... [2] https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-27...

Sure by these measures I'm rich, but I don't feel that way. Our current income isn't really indicative of the whole picture. Since I was diagnosed as Bi-Polar 20 years ago, I have averaged 2 months of unemployment per year, and just spent 13 months without income due to my inability to cope with the stress of the world. Today I'm rich. Tomorrow I could be living in a van for 6 months like I did after the 2001 bubble…

I think it's helpful to consider that just because you are upper class does not necessarily imply that you are rich.

I know plenty of people with upper class hobbies. I couldn't say for sure if they are rich, but they certainly don't live a lifestyle that I was ever familiar with growing up.

Even taking a year off to de-stress... Someone without financial means couldn't make those choices.

And I've known bipolar people too. They worked when they could, and went on disability when they couldn't. They were never rich. Even when they worked, they were always struggling.

I'd never met anyone taking about buying a house in the Spanish hills until becoming a techie.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#839

Post by fourthwaveska »

grumblenum wrote: post #830
fourthwaveska wrote: post #801

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes Bush isn't president, but the failures and hatreds of the entire Bush family are still incredibly relevant today. If you don't believe that, look at the 10s of thousands of Afghans currently walking through Iran and Turkey to find refuge in Europe). When you're the leader of the most powerful nation in the world, your decisions outlast your position.

I think the refugees are motivated much more by the financial incentives those governments provide. They usually pass through multiple safe countries to get to places like Germany. A modernized Plantation of Ulster has been the policy of every Western government since the 60s. War and, I guess, the weather, are convenient narratives for these highly unpopular policies.

I’m guessing you have never volunteered at a refugee camp?

Would you like to? I ask in all seriousness. The UN has several programs which are basically refugee tourism.

Like missionary work but without forcing them to get baptized for their supper.

I did it in Turkey 6 years ago. Imagine 5 miles of tents in any direction. Most people who were there then are still there now.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#840

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

abroadsaver wrote: post #829
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, being Pole, if I spend more than 180 days in Sweden, I now owe taxes in Sweden but no longer owe them in Poland. That is because Poland recognizes that, while I am Polish citizen, I actually was Swedish resident during that tax year. And have an agreement with Sweden so that it is clear where I have to pay my taxes. The US has similar arrangements with many countries, and you are not doubly-taxed. You…

> The US has similar arrangements with many countries, and you are not doubly-taxed. You simply pay taxes at the highest rate of the two (US and ). But do you see how punitive that is to US expats? It means that they never benefit from tax mitigation efforts in their resident country if the US has higher taxes on that. That, tax-wise, they are perpetually worse off than US residents and their local neighbors. Think a…

I certainly see it.

My dispute was only with the term "doubly-taxed", which for countries with a tax treaty is simply false.

Nevertheless, you are correct that as a US citizen, you are destined to pay max (USTax (income), OtherTax (income)). I don't agree with this, but it's not called "double taxation".

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