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Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

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Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#271
Since most of this community is outside of healthcare, I figure I might as well share some of what this experience has been like for my wife, who's an ICU physician.

In short, it's not good. Normal times for her community are always a bit stressful and burnout is real. Prior to COVID, a typical community, non-academic job, consists of 12 hour shifts and and at least 15 shifts a month. Some of those shifts will be weekends. Expect at least 3-4 nights. Realistically, the shifts end up being longer because of charting and billing. Alternatively, if someone codes (dies) at the end of the shift, you're there longer to see that the patient is stabilized and to give a proper sign out to the next physician. When COVID started, the number of shifts per month went up. Simply, there are more sick patients and more people dying, so the work requirements were higher. Practically, that means double the number of worked weekends and nights. More days a month. Really, they end up with only a handful of days off a month.

Beyond that, a couple of things started to really wear on the community over time. One, physicians like to see their patients get better. For COVID, once they hit the ICU, they're probably going to die. And, it's not just they show up and die right away. Medical technology is really good. Mostly, they stay on the vent for weeks at a time in a very fragile state and then they die. Emotionally, it's very difficult to see someone that you care for intimately die like that, repeatedly. Two, grieving families are rarely easy to deal with, but COVID has made them incredibly abusive and hostile. It's pretty common now for the families to either in person or on the phone to scream, berate, and degrade the physicians and the care they provide. They accuse them of trying to kill their family or to providing inadequate, incompetent care. They Google the treatment of the week and demand that it be used. When they don't get what they want, they threaten lawsuits or demand transfer to another hospital. These transfers are not possible since moving the patient will kill them and the other hospitals are already full. Now, most physicians don't require someone to kiss their ass (some do), but given the amount of time, energy, and tears that they put into taking care of someone, it's deflating and demoralizing to be treated like this. No one wants to. There's always been abusive families, but I'll contend that the situation has gotten much worse. Three, many hospitals have put restrictions on the personal lives of their staff, which has diminished their ability to cope and recharge. A common refrain is that they're "all hands on deck," which translates to a ban on out of state travel or approved vacation. Now, while it's important that the medical community set a good example and keep their patients safe, they're also people and need to decompress. So, things like going one state over to a national park while staying in a remote cabin are now fireable if you get caught. Certainly, this is not the case everyone, but not so uncommon.

But, really, the primary stressor now is that, from a medical point of view, the whole situation is rests on stupidity and it's incredibly frustrating and stressful. All of the cases my wife sees now are unvaccinated. It's not to say there aren't breakthrough cases, but she's not getting them. Now, eventually, someone gets close to dying and the family gets called in. They'll ask ahead of time, "Are you vaccinated?" Universally, the answer is no. They push a little, "Soooo, your mother/child/husband/wife is sitting here dying of COVID, you may want to think about a vaccination." They'll answer, "No, I'm good and I want to come in." Then, they'll say, "Alright, fine, but this person is on BiPap and you may want to wear an N-95 before you enter the room." Then, they'll complain about masks. After that, two weeks later, they get the mother/child/husband/wife in the ICU. It's horrific.

What can be done? In my opinion, money's not the driving factor. Get the vaccine. Just do it. It saves lives. It works. Just get the vaccine. The medical community really is burning out and I can assure you that when you eventually hit the hospital for something related to COVID or not you're going to want them on their A-game. They're not going to be with the amount of time this has gone on. Get the vaccine.

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company's responsibility is solely to its shareholders, not to its customers. If those two goals align, win/win. Denying expensive claims increases profitability right up to the point they lose enough customers to offset those gains. Am I missing something fundamental about capitalism here? I'm not saying that's particularly ethical behavior and they wouldn't get my business if I could help it, but if they choose t…

> Denying expensive claims increases profitability right up to the point they lose enough customers to offset those gains. Am I missing something fundamental about capitalism here? Yes... the ultimate responsible party is the patient, not the insurance company. It makes no sense to deny Americans the right to use the hospital because the hospitals are private entities contracting with their patients, not a government…

Who's denying Americans the right to use hospitals if their insurance is denied due to a pre-existing condition of being unvaccinated? Freedom isn't free, they should have done their cost/benefit analysis a priori instead of trying to shaft the rest of us with the bar tab. Sounds like you want Medical Marxism to me.

And if the hospital is filled to capacity maximizing revenue already, why can't a free market entity preferentially treat the vaccinated who will pose a lesser danger to their employees and thus result in lower employee burnout and sick pay not mention higher gross margin?

This leaves the insurance companies free to pursue their mission of maximizing profitability as much as they possibly can to deliver shareholder value and we all win, no?

It also leaves entrepreneurial sorts like yourself the opportunity to open a bespoke hospital for anti-vaxxers and mask-deniers who, if they have the money, will pay top $$$ because the alternative given they are at your door is an eternal dirt nap.

Seems like an American Success story in the making to me.

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The injections were only found to be efficacious in preventing severe illness. Everything else is conjecture at best.

They were found to inhibit infection via PCR testing and comparison with a control group. There may be a waning effect, especially with delta. I don't believe they're perfect by any means, but they certainly aren't worthless.

That is absolutely not something the found in the clinical trials.

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#274
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a big one? Or is it that there are what, like 10 types of things called nurse now? I'm asking earnestly, not making an accusation. Ten years ago in a LCOL area, I knew an RN making about that, and they were treated like queens. Was able to work 3 12's, be paid for 40 hrs, and given hotel stay for free, among other things...usually including optional unlimited overtime at double pay. Then I knew some CNAs or…

"Nurse" covers a huge round of competencies in the UK. The standard full-time pay scale goes from £18K to £105K. https://www.nurses.co.uk/careers-hub/nursing-pay-guide/

From the link, qualified nurses start on band 5 that is £24,907 guaranteed nationwide out of university.

Then it increases automatically to £30,615 after 7 years of experience (and more by then because it's also adjusted up automatically for inflation).

Honestly it's decent out of university... if the hours and the patients aren't too bad. Bear in mind it's a guaranteed MINIMUM (outside of London).

edit: was wondering how difficult it is to promote to the next band that starts above that. other articles say it's doable in two years. nurses read just like the typical HN discussion where companies have to progress developers quickly or they all jump ship a year after graduation. ahah

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#275
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not triggered at all, except by the continued conflation of COVID with influenza. You specifically mentioned: "Where was your haughty indignation during the last bad flu season?" Show me a flu season that has exerted the same amount of pressure on hospitals and healthcare workers.

How are you measuring it? What metric would you like to compare? My comment does not conflate the two. You’re reaching. Every winter (flu season) exerts extra pressure. It doesn’t take much to push hospitals over the edge.

One metric that's interesting: what the market is offering for temporary contracts for traveling nurses. Past flu seasons haven't seen contracts of $10k+ per WEEK for ICU nurses.

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#276
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is little reason to believe COVID will evolve into something more deadly. In general viruses rarely make this evolutionary step. This is false, and has already happened with COVID-19's delta variant. "in addition to being more contagious, the delta variant likely increases the risk of severe disease and hospitalization, compared with the original strain." - https://www.npr.org/2021/07/29/1022580439/a-cdc-inte…

> It also says that in addition to being more contagious, the delta variant likely increases the risk of severe disease and hospitalization, compared with the original strain. Hold on, hospitalization and severe disease and death are completely different things. This is a disingenuous use of this article. I mean, mono is severe (tired for months potentially), but not deadly. A burst appendix requires hospitalization…

"hospitalization and severe disease and death are completely different things."

So you're claiming hospitalization, severe illness, and death are not correlated at all w/r to prior of COVID-19 diagnosis? How does that work? Do you have the numbers to back this up? I'd love to see them.

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#277
post #32
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US, the hospital system, at least the ERs were already running on fumes >but no investment in increasing hospital capacity Agree, where did all the billions go? The most expensive healthcare on the planet and we can't find the money to scale and expand a year and a half later.

I mean, every hospital director needs at least three vacation homes and two boats right?

The average salary of a US hospital director is $125k. https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/healthcare-director-salar...

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#278
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Money can't buy happiness Usually when someone says this to me, I respond with "then you're spending your money poorly". What I mean to say is that more money buys more flexibility and options, which should lead to more opportunities to leave unhappy situations or at least add more happy situations. Note that this is a generalization so there are plenty of edge cases to counter this.

There's also this distressing hump in the money/happiness curve. More money leads to a greater sense of well being up to a point where you meet your basic sufficiency needs, and then, beyond that, the correlation goes inverse. My guess is that there is a very strong diminishing returns effect to the utility of money, and that, at some point, other effects start to dominate. Perhaps what's happening with health care w…

Can you cite a source on that? The studies I've seen have shown that happiness increases more slowly after a certain income but the slope never goes negative.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/alexledsom...

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reluctant to leverage such language, but this is an appeal to authority. And there's tons of historical evidence that authorities failed to produce their predicted end without regard to their field, specialty, education, politics, etc... So to acede to this solely on the basis that the "intelligentsia" has is perhaps just as blind a means as a coinflip. And there is of course a plenitude of arguments about how po…

It's important to recognize the difference between deductive and inductive logic. Much of academia, from lit reviews to citations to the way people are trained and educated, is inherently based upon appeal to authority. Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy only insofar as you're considering purely deductive logic, in the sense that a statement "X believes Y, therefore Y" is not formally valid . That doesn't mean…

You're putting words in my mouth. I said as blind as a coinflip.

And you've managed construe a total misapprehension of my intended point. A fairly simple medicine that has been deployed for a very long period of time, very well studied and understood, can still generate novel information. My point wasn't to squeeze mortality rates or make positions on the use and importance of penicillin, simply to evince readers the point there are still unknown unknowns, in practice, of something that's been widely proliferated for nearly a century.

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

35% is the fatality rate of MERS, a related CoronaVirus, and you have presented zero evidence to prove it's impossible SARS-CoV-2 mutate up to that rate. You sound like you're trying to cover up peer-reviewed data suggesting we take this into account. You have also presented no evidence that with increased transmissibility we won't see increased fatality. Put up or shut up.

Viruses don't 'mutate' up to a death rate. They mutate to a low death rate in one host, then sometimes cross, and happen to cause a higher death rate in the new species. Can Sars cov2 cross to another animal, mutate, and come back to humans with a higher death rate? Certainly, but that's not what we're talking about with these variants.

So you are asserting it is impossible for a virus to increase its fatality rate through mutation within the same species? That there has to be a zoonotic transfer for this to be possible? Where's your evidence? Because this must mean that contrary to the prevailing belief across the scientific community that Spanish Flu did exactly that (1), there must have been 2 Zoonotic events transfer events between the first and second wave.

You're looking at a Nobel Prize here if you're right, take your best shot sport!

1. https://www.livescience.com/1918-flu-variant-deadlier-later-...

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