Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#461

Post by aarchi » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

andi999 wrote: post #106

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. This is exactly why these people are renouncing US citizenship: They’re living overseas as citizens of another country and, like anyone rich or poor, don’t want to be paying taxes to a country they aren’t living in.…

One should actually be a bit careful to state such intent. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Amendment_(immigration)

Still seems relatively safe:

> The Department of Homeland Security has stated that they cannot obtain the information required to enforce the amendment unless the former U.S. citizen "affirmatively admit[s]" his or her reasons for renouncing citizenship, and so from 2002 to 2015, only two people were denied entry to the United States on the grounds of the amendment.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#462

Post by tristor » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

I was unwilling to renounce and stay abroad, for a variety of reasons, so I returned to the US and decided to stay. But for a good while I lived and traveled outside the US as a digital nomad and the tax implications are immense, especially if you are a member of any corporation or LLC, have any retirement accounts, or own any property. It's an absolute nightmare to correctly file taxes, has an astronomically high audit risk (you basically /will/ be audited), and is very expensive to hire accountants that have understanding of multiple national tax laws to cover things correctly.

FATCA made this even worse. Now many companies and financial institutions abroad will refuse to do business with you if you hold US citizenship /even/ if you are a dual citizen and primary resident of the country they are based in. It's absolutely absurd how the US government treats American expats, and is in stark contrast to how British, Australian, and German expats are treated (of which there are many all over the world).

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#463

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

stickfigure wrote: post #432

emodendroket wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What difference does that make? Is the ambulance worthless because not everybody it picks up lives?

The value I assign to "my government will ensure repatriation of my corpse" is $0.

Which is not what happened, given that he died after he got home. Again, not seeing how this is different than blaming the ambulance because you died in the ER.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#464

Post by AdamN » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

vgatherps wrote: post #228

alephnan wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have a duty not to comply. If you're making income in America, you owe US tax taxes. If you are a permanent resident of the United States, you owe US taxes. Whether the IRS is using mafia tactics or not, what you are describing is tax evasion. There are legal ways to minimize your tax burden, but this is horrible advise.

This comment isn't about somebody living in America. This is about somebody who doesn't live in america, has never lived there, doesn't have a passport, but are considered "american" by the IRS - somebody born in the USA to non-citizen parents while traveling for example.

Not by the IRS, by the USG.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#465

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

ElFitz wrote: post #455

emodendroket wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"One of the worst" maybe if you're comparing to the EU, but definitely not in a wider global sense.

> "One of the worst" maybe if you're comparing to the EU, but definitely not in a wider global sense. Definitely. But comparing the benefits of US citizenship to that of, say, Venezuela or Tchad would be pointless, now, wouldn’t it?

Why would that be pointless?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#466

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

ElFitz wrote: post #437

emodendroket wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the revenue is not very great but if there were a blanket exception I think you’d suddenly find a lot more people gaming then system to not technically be US residents and thereby escape large amounts of liability.

Most countries don’t tax citizens living abroad on foreign revenue, and just forget about them once they become residents elsewhere (unless they still have income from their country of origin).

[deleted]

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#467

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:28 PM UTC

w0mbat wrote: post #418

emodendroket wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to another post you do not owe tax on income below $108k so that’s probably not going to affect most filers, though I’m sure an anomalously high number of HN users are earning six-figure salaries.

As multiple people have explained, preparing the required paperwork each year is a major expense and hassle, even if you do not owe any tax. Also, if you are technical enough to frequent this web site and you think $108K is a lot of money, you are being underpaid.

> Also, if you are technical enough to frequent this web site and you think $108K is a lot of money, you are being underpaid.

Sorry, what? Exactly how much technical ability does it take to frequent a website? You have the strangest delusion I've seen on HN and that's saying something.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#468

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

circular_logic wrote: post #63

Interesting facts about renouncing American citizenship: - There is renunciation fee that has to be paid and currently stands at $2,350 (the highest in the world).[1] - A final tax return will sill need to be filed. [1] - An Expatriation tax is payable if [..] Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation. you will be treated as having disposed of your assets the day before your expatriation a…

[deleted]

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#469

Post by trasz » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #430

trasz wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FBI doesn’t invoice victims what

They don’t charge money to investigate crimes.

Just like every other civilized country. The fact that it was even mentioned suggests that for Americans it might not always be the case in some situations, which is quite frightening.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#470

Post by eduardo_f » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

aarchi wrote: post #454

fmajid wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some are "accidental Americans" like UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson, born in the US, who discovered as a US citizen he had to pay capital gains taxes when he sold his London apartment. Australia requires its parliamentarians to have only Australian citizenship and some discovered for the same reason they were not eligible. Furthermore, the burden of FATCA is sufficiently onerous that many banks etc. just refuse to d…

Well Germany also requires that you surrender other citizenships when you get a German citizenship, unless you are a German dual citizen through ancestry.

This is incorrect.