Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#291

Post by ninja3925 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

amilios wrote: post #141

ninja3925 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Off the back” sounds like the wealthy took advantage of folks when, in fact, they entered voluntary contracts in a win-win scenario. Creating a company is not exploitative but rather collaborative and mutually beneficial (with workers).

This is a fantasy. Voluntary contracts imply that workers have the option of not working for starvation wages, which in many cases is simply not true. If your options are to work a dead-end minwage job or, well, die on the street, is it really a voluntary contract that you're entering? I would say not.

Of course! You can choose: - Not to work - Move to a city/state with better opportunities - Take classes to specialize - Work hard and get promoted - Start your business

Aren't these valid options? No "cigar smoking fat cat" force workers to sign the contract under duress.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#292

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

dustinmoris wrote: post #260

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. For example, we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision.

> U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. Not sure about actual benefits. The US passports is one of the worst when it comes to travel. Many countries have stricter entry rules only for US citizen, or require at least a higher Visa fee in comparison to other Western nations or outright don't allow US citizens entry at all. I found my Austrian passport to be actually extremely beneficial. Most powerful pas…

"One of the worst" maybe if you're comparing to the EU, but definitely not in a wider global sense.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#293

Post by ggggtez » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

I've heard that technically renouncing us citizenship to dodge taxes is illegal. But as with most things, that's only if you get caught.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#294

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

jimkleiber wrote: post #282

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

When I lived and worked in East Africa, I know that most, if not all of my income, was not taxed back in the US because of the Foreign Income Exclusion Act. Basically, for foreign earned income anywhere below ~$80,000 at the time, I didn't have to pay tax, which the limit is now around $108,000 or so. However, as you point out, that doesn't seem to apply to dividends and capital gains and other types of income [1]. I…

It seems like it is a more progressive scheme to protect wages over investment income.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#295

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

DennisP wrote: post #237

amcoastal wrote: post #3

Its really a great system we have here --- get insanely wealthy off the backs of Americans who pay tons more for basic services and then when it's time to pay back run off and keep your change. No wonder America is doing so well.

> get insanely wealthy off the backs of Americans I find it a bit startling to see this sentiment on HN, a site that used to be mostly full of people building startups, attempting to get wealthy by building something useful that people are happy to pay for.

[deleted]

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#296

Post by space_rock » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

altcognito wrote: post #2

They’ve been allowed for decades to avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country while simultaneously holding most of the influence. “Renouncing citizenship” means they’ll give up none of the influence, lose the taxes, live how and wherever they want. The best thing to do is forbid them re-entry into the country nor to hold controlling interest in any company in the US. Faced with actual conseque…

It's funny that citizens of every other rich country on the planet have this free arrangement where we only pay tax where we live. But in your fantasies this behaviour and freedom is so evil we should be blocked from returning home

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#297

Post by cltby » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

altcognito wrote: post #2

They’ve been allowed for decades to avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country while simultaneously holding most of the influence. “Renouncing citizenship” means they’ll give up none of the influence, lose the taxes, live how and wherever they want. The best thing to do is forbid them re-entry into the country nor to hold controlling interest in any company in the US. Faced with actual conseque…

> avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country

The premise here is dead wrong. The top 1% pay ~40% of taxes; the top 5% pay ~60%. So not only do these people create the wonderful consumer goods that enrich your life; they also provide the roads, police, fire fighters, etc. Show some gratitude!

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#298

Post by ninja3925 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #232

ninja3925 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Off the back” sounds like the wealthy took advantage of folks when, in fact, they entered voluntary contracts in a win-win scenario. Creating a company is not exploitative but rather collaborative and mutually beneficial (with workers).

Wage theft is the #1 fraud[0] in the US. So while the voluntary contract can be a win-win for a quite a few Americans it is still exploitative. [0] https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-fro...

While true and something that needs fixing immediately, this is uncommon and therefore, cannot be used to describe the relationship as "exploitative".

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#299

Post by pmoriarty » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

andi999 wrote: post #106

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. This is exactly why these people are renouncing US citizenship: They’re living overseas as citizens of another country and, like anyone rich or poor, don’t want to be paying taxes to a country they aren’t living in.…

One should actually be a bit careful to state such intent. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reed_Amendment_(immigration)

A pertinent example of the kinds of people this amendment was apparently intended to bar from entry to the US:

"One example discussed was Kenneth Dart of Dart Container, who had become a citizen of Belize and then attempted to obtain a diplomatic visa to serve as Belize's new consul in Sarasota, Florida."

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#300

Post by steve76 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

> It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. This is exactly why these people are renouncing US citizenship: They’re living overseas as citizens of another country and, like anyone rich or poor, don’t want to be paying taxes to a country they aren’t living in.…

>It’s not exactly unfair or nefarious.

>Eric Schmidt, the former Alphabet CEO, has applied to become a citizen of Cyprus.

The rich jerk who needed free trillions or otherwise the world would end left us high and dry. Wow imagine that. And I wonder how this is going to end. Not like it's too difficult today to spread word through Turkish prisons that it's open season on rich Americans in Cypress.

Public outrage? Likely you'll get complementary cigarettes sent to you in the mail.