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Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

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Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can separate the two. It's like separating Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak and giving 100% of the credit to Woz or Jobs. Certainly Shotwell has made the business and operational side of the Space Falcon business smooth and helped win commercial/government contracts. But do you really think it is shotwell who is aggressively asking people to throw away designs, delete components, and iterate quickly by…

No, you're literally just giving Musk credit for things he didn't do but which Shotwell did. If Shotwell were a man, nobody would put up with Musk stealing the credit for her work. The reason that they did install 29 Raptor engines overnight was because Musk was a whiny little s$$$ and forced the employees to do it on threat of termination. But the reason they could do it was because Shotwell had the company running…

Would Starbase or Starship even exist as a concept or program of SpaceX, if it hadn't been for Musk? Would Shotwell have created the Starship program at SpaceX? Would Shotwell even have pushed for the reusable booster program at SpaceX or would she have went with expendable first stages? No one is taking anything away from Shotwell, but fact is, it is Musk who is making reusability, full reusability, on-orbit refueling, and super-heavy lift a priority of R&D at SpaceX.

And this has nothing to do with gender. Steve Jobs got all of the accolades for everything amazing that Apple did. He stole credit from Steve Wozniak, and from all of the other brilliant designers and engineers at Apple, but people mostly gave him a pass. But to deny Steve as the driving force for many of decisions, even if Steve had nothing to do with Apple's amazing supply chain management, or semiconductor team, is also distorting history. No Steve Jobs, no iPhone, no Mac. No Musk, no Starship. It's just that simple, Musk isn't an executive to set out to make a rocket company to make money launching satellites, he set out to make humans multiplanetary, and everything flows from that vision. His obsession with that dream is the core driver behind everything else.

Musk creates the 'urgency' at SpaceX. Blue Origin isn't doing jack because they are careful with money, Blue Origin is wasting money. They've spent $1 billion a year! They're not doing anything because they're running a traditional waterfall model of development and they have no urgency, becausefor Bezos this is a hobby. They're OldSpace dressed up in NewSpace clothing.

What you're doing is trying to remove the person who controls the purse springs, who is pushing his company to engage in risky, unsafe, but potentially revolutionary vision, from the story. Put a traditional CEO in Musk's chair and you'll get a guy managing a 5% YoY improvement in their existing Falcon 9 business lines every year. They'll rest on their butt milking the Falcon 9 with tweaks, and they'll be stuck in the innovators dilemma for fear of killing the golden goose, or risking the company.

And it's for that reason, since the 1960s, the basic formula for aerospace companies hasn't changed.

Also to be clear, I'm a big fan of Shotwell. But you can be a fan of both Steve Jobs and Tim Cook, of the visionary risk taker with the obsessive personality, and the person responsible for executing it. With the ADHD and the OCD founders. You need both kinds of people.

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#262
post #115

This reads almost identically to Steve Jobs history at Apple revealed in Walter Isaacson's biography of him. > But it’s a difficult and exhausting book. Jobs was a world-class asshole. He was a selfish, self-centered man who heaped abuse on everyone around him. After a few hours, the catalog of tantrums, tirades and put-downs wears thin. You may have huge admiration for Jobs’s accomplishments, but it can be hard to h…

Musk seems to be more of an asshole, like someone affecting an exaggerated version of his image of Steve Jobs. There are entirely valid critiques of Steve Jobs. His overly restrictive and proprietary technology being a major one. But the myth that he was some kind of social monster is ahistorical. Steve Jobs was very opinionated, honest, and unafraid to tell people what he thought. At times he was overly harsh, no do…

Read Woz's bio. And even he puts it lightly since you can tell he considered Jobs a friendo.

Jobs was unhinged.

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#264

Oh no, a CEO yelled at employees, investors, and cut corners. Steve Jobs must be rolling in his grave. I think the record shows that Tesla, and Musk, have undergone a lot of growing pains and mistakes, but the results speak for themselves.

I mean, if he actually really behaved like that, that's deeply shameful and he should resign

Look, I have a great deal of respect and affection for Elon. But if you absolutely must behave like a Boer, you do it towards your peers and your superiors. Not towards your subordinates - never towards your subordinates

Raging at subordinates is not "passion", it's immaturity and abuse

That said, who knows if he ever did/said any of that

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#265
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So saying positive things about a good product makes him a shill? That’s a pretty low bar you set. Does this apply to all things in your life?

Saying only positive things about a mediocre product makes him a shill.

Whether or not Model 3 is mediocre is in the eye of the beholder. The continuous numerical and quantitative comparisons Sandy Munroe makes are not. Examples:

    - Numbers of fasteners in subsystems
    - Total length of cooling hoses
    - Total weight of coolant
    - Weight of the body in white
    - Efficiency vs. total energy of pack
    - Part counts
And this is just what I can remember off the top of my head. So whether or not you think Model 3 is mediocre, there are TONS of quantitative measures by which Model 3 is a long, long way ahead of their competition. Also, note that in some places, Ford and Volkswagen are by Sandy Munroe shown to be ahead of Tesla both quantitatively and qualitatively.

It looks like Sandy Munroe is doing a fair comparison based on sound engineering principles. On the other hand, I think you just don't like what he has to say with regards to Tesla.

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#266
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I say he's a Tesla shill, it's specifically because of the positive things he says about Tesla. Right. Checks out. There's certainly solid engineering logic and reasoning there! So, if that's your best example, are you tacitly admitting you can't think of any mechanical engineering examples?

It is actually my best example, as it shows very clearly how much he is willing to say untrue things in favor of Tesla. Why should only mechanical engineering examples be valid?

1) It's Sandy's actual area of expertise. With AI and self driving, he's just a layperson.

2) His mechanical engineering content comprises about 99% of what he says about Tesla.

Given these two factors, your (seemingly only) supportable observation seems awfully weak.

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He isn't building anything, the actual engineers (whom he likely also routinely abuses) do.

Any source for that? He sure seems to know very fine detail of almost anything related to the product. See for example: Everyday Astronaut recent Musk interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t705r8ICkRw Munro interview with Musk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtLTLiqNwg There are also other examples where Musk talks about things it's hard to imagine of him even being aware of if he's not building anything.

You're right, I should be fair: Musk the engineer is building something, but alongside many other people, and his contribution there is not dominant. Musk the entrepreneur isn't building anything, though, and that's what the man mostly is.

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#268
post #26

"Tried to get rid of safety measures" He was annoyed at seeing his line stopped, during a crisis, who wouldn't be? He tried to convince them to start it again, but they didn't. If he then overruled them and actually started the line and actually put anyone in danger that would have been a bad thing. But he didn't, and there's no story here. Just an anecdote of an emotional moment. No one believed they could actually…

Another former exec describes the time when Musk moved his desk to the factory floor to signal the importance of the Model S production crunch, and personally oversee it. However, he was so annoyed by the mandatory honking that factory floor trucks are required to do when approaching a corner, so he swiftly banned that practice… The anecdotes seem to have no end.

I can see this as being a real story.

I just finished watching this really very interesting interview with Elon as he walks around the spacex stuff https://youtu.be/t705r8ICkRw

He got vocally and visibly annoyed with the beeping noises that the machines were making. It was a useless cacophony of beeps and you could just see in his head he was thinking "How the hell do I make this better and quieter"

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like almost every fast growing tech giant This is rubbish and actually offensive. Tim Cook, Sundar Pichai, Jack Dorsey, Patrick Collison, Brian Chesky etc. are not abusive. And in fact if you look at all of the fastest growing companies the pattern is for them to be moved out if they are abusive or have troubling behaviour. Stop perpetuating this myth that the industry tolerates behaviours that other companies don'…

Steve Jobs was. Steve Ballmer made chairs fly. Bill Gates was also (verbally) abusive. They both stayed at their companies for quite a while. Where was the pressure for them to change their behavior?

Guys like Robert Moore weren't abusive at all, but nobody mentions that. Yes, Jobs was abusive, as well as Ballmer. So was many people in other industries.

Re: Tesla CEO berated employees, investors and tried to get rid of safety measures

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> like almost every fast growing tech giant This is rubbish and actually offensive. Tim Cook, Sundar Pichai, Jack Dorsey, Patrick Collison, Brian Chesky etc. are not abusive. And in fact if you look at all of the fastest growing companies the pattern is for them to be moved out if they are abusive or have troubling behaviour. Stop perpetuating this myth that the industry tolerates behaviours that other companies don'…

Neither Tim Cook nor Sundar Pichai "count" as both became CEO when those companies were already S&P 500 components. That said I did not mean to imply that fast growing companies could only be built by abusive CEOs and I apologize for claiming otherwise.

Gordon Moore wasn't abusive at all.
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