NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#691

Post by sokoloff » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:35 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #655

bingohbangoh wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won’t there always be a variant popping up somewhere in some part of the world though? The idea that “if we all got vaccinated, we could have zero variants” reeks of “zero COVID” thinking

the dynamic is a feedback loop in either direction. More vaccinations means slowdown of spread which means slower rate of mutation and in turn easier ways to control the virus. Faster transmission means faster rate of mutations and having a harder time controlling the virus. 'Zero covid' or near-zero covid anyway does not 'reek' because it is perfectly attainable. The virus could be squashed pretty much completely. T…

Haven’t we seen several recent papers suggesting animal reservoirs for the virus? If those papers are correct, it seems that elimination from the Earth is never going to happen (well, it’ll happen when the sun turns into a red giant).

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#692

Post by _ph_ » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:35 PM UTC

a_conservative wrote: post #314

cletus wrote: post #225

In 2000, WHO declared measles "eradicated" in the United States [1]. Of course, that's no longer the case thanks to those who have decided their feelings and watching an unverified Youtube video trumps science. Requiring vaccination is not new. As a matter of law in the US the issue was settled by the Supreme Court in Jacobson v. Massachussetts in 1905 [2]. Mandatory vaccination has been used to effectively eliminate…

Why people are so quick to blame to blame anti-vaxxers? The United States has millions of immigrants and visitors from other countries. Some go through official channels which require vaccinations, many do not. According to the CDC, Measles is brought into the US by international travel: Measles cases in the U.S. originate from international travel. Make sure you and your loved ones are protected against measles befo…

Yes, travellers might bring the virus in, but the vaccination count determines whether they spred in the population.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#693

Post by pklausler » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:36 PM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #679

Barrin92 wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…

The flu virus can and has mutated in the past to become extremely deadly (see 1918). Why is it different this time? Why should it be treated differently than the flu, when it comes to variants? I think everyone should get vaccinated, but I want to fill in all logical holes to help this debate.

This time, we've got effective vaccines.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#694

Post by Hippocrates » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:36 PM UTC

wyager wrote: post #667

Hippocrates wrote: post #660

So they're requiring vaccination in "many indoor settings", which just includes restaurants, movie theaters and gyms... Those are luxuries. What are people up in arms about then? Its like another take on the mask mandate outrage, where people conflated selfishness with freedom, except this time you can still do everything you need to while being non-compliant.

The government does not have carte-blanche authority to strip people of any liberty that isn’t strictly necessary for survival. The government stripping life of all its “luxuries” just looks like being in prison (except at least prisoners are allowed to go to the gym).

Sounds very dystopian when you describe it outside the context of a life-saving measure. I don't like the idea of a "government stripping life of all its luxuries" either. ...but are you sure they don't have that authority? There have been plenty of times I've had luxuries stripped in the last two years. What about enjoyable, luxurious substances? International travel to exciting places? Driving around without a seatbelt?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#695

Post by malshe » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:37 PM UTC

a_conservative wrote: post #314

cletus wrote: post #225

In 2000, WHO declared measles "eradicated" in the United States [1]. Of course, that's no longer the case thanks to those who have decided their feelings and watching an unverified Youtube video trumps science. Requiring vaccination is not new. As a matter of law in the US the issue was settled by the Supreme Court in Jacobson v. Massachussetts in 1905 [2]. Mandatory vaccination has been used to effectively eliminate…

Why people are so quick to blame to blame anti-vaxxers? The United States has millions of immigrants and visitors from other countries. Some go through official channels which require vaccinations, many do not. According to the CDC, Measles is brought into the US by international travel: Measles cases in the U.S. originate from international travel. Make sure you and your loved ones are protected against measles befo…

Anti-vaxxers are not exclusive to the US. There are idiots everywhere in the world.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#696

Post by freeone3000 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:39 PM UTC

acituan wrote: post #611

Barrin92 wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…

> The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants > Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous Those are very different justifications with very different p…

How in the world could vaccine rollout have been any faster? This is the fastest a vaccination program has ever been run, for anything, ever. We're at 60% population vaccination after SIX MONTHS, which is absolutely insane -- polio was slower, and they were allowed jet injectors! Vaccination is going as fast as possible, and policy was implemented to minimize all mixing of people, not just Vax/unvax.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#697

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:42 PM UTC

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Largely complaints about tyranny

Thought-terminating cliches are a very effective tool for shutting down discussion. Sadly they've become very common HN in recent years as the site has grown.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#698

Post by timr » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:43 PM UTC

chaps wrote: post #684

timr wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…

Okay, so then you die. Nihilism is your choice, so that's cool I guess. But your post is about you, and only you, fullstop. There are other people out there, despite whatever solipsistic beliefs you have. With an R0 value of 6, you're statistically likely to infect 6 other people. Why is that acceptable to you?

> With an R0 value of 6, you're statistically likely to infect 6 other people. Why is that acceptable to you?

Because I have been "statistically likely" to infect N other people every time I had a cold, a flu, or any number of other viruses, most of which are fatal to at least some segment of the population.

Moreover, those N other people can get vaccinated if they're worried about this particular risk. It's a great vaccine. It essentially prevents death from SARS-CoV2. If they don't, that's their choice.

Being alive is risky. You can try to eliminate all of that risk, but you will be dead long before anyone puts you in the grave.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#699

Post by notJim » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:44 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #649

notJim wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This emotionally charged language isn't helpful to a rational discussion. I think your comment would be stronger without it. > I am fully vaccinated, but the research is clear - I can carry an infection just as effectively in my nasal cavity as my antivax cousin. Showing my card at the door does PRECISELY NOTHING to prevent spread. I'm pretty sure this is untrue, but not positive. The communication has been very conf…

> This would obviously be far far more invasive than getting two shots. This is not prima facie evident, at all. For many people, being rationed to 1500kcal per day would be much less invasive than a foreign substance being forcibly injected into your body. Annoying and restrictive, yes, but definitely not invasive . Further, if we accept the premise (I don't) that governments can mandate any and all measures to ensu…

> For many people, being rationed to 1500kcal per day would be much less invasive than a foreign substance being forcibly injected into your body. Annoying and restrictive, yes, but definitely not invasive.

I'm sorry, but the government telling you how much food you're allowed to eat, 3 times a day, essentially for your entire life is so obviously more restrictive than a vaccine mandate. Have you ever actually counted calories, or eaten 1500 a day for months or more on end? I've done both, and it's incredibly disruptive. In studies, people are not very successful at complying with calorie restrictions. How does the government enforce this?

I could understand an argument that both are too invasive (though I'd disagree), but not that controlling what people eat is less invasive. The vaccine is safe, has been studied, costs you nothing financially and very little in time. It does not cause you to upend your entire lifestyle for something you do every single day for as long as you're alive.

> We have the worst of both worlds: we have (1) governments violating our rights in the name of public health with mandates that (2) are pure, useless, ineffective theater.

Is this referring to mask mandates? It looks like masks are reasonably well supported by evidence:

https://www.pnas.org/content/118/4/e2014564118

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-abou...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#700

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 11:45 PM UTC

chaps wrote: post #684

timr wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…

Okay, so then you die. Nihilism is your choice, so that's cool I guess. But your post is about you, and only you, fullstop. There are other people out there, despite whatever solipsistic beliefs you have. With an R0 value of 6, you're statistically likely to infect 6 other people. Why is that acceptable to you?

With an R0 value of 6

What is effective R with the mRNA vaccines?