Papers please.
NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
671–680 of 1001 posts
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#672Covid will be long gone in 100 years. But you know what might not be gone: the precedents we’re creating today. Introducing a show-your-papers culture where we once had a free and open society.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts This was 116 years ago.
The US Supreme Court is not the ultimate moral authority. You’re responding to a comment addressing the abstract long-term consequences of a policy with a specific legal determination saying the policy didn’t happen to violate US law.
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#673Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…
NPR yesterday was interviewing a guy who'd had an organ transplant and thus has to take immunosuppressant drugs. He'd been vaccinated, it was either pfizer or moderna. His doctor tested him for antibodies, his were undetectable. He was getting a third shot in hopes it would finally give him antibodies. By being against vaccines or against vaccine requirements, people risk the lives of those like that guy, who's alrea…
Using this reasoning shouldn't the flu vaccine also be required? Many immunosuppressed individuals cannot survive the flu.
BTW, I'm not implying a stance here as pro- or anti- vaccine requirements - just probing this particular talking point.
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#674Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you drawing a comparison between requiring vaccinations (with 30+ year safety records) against measles and polio, for children to attend public school, with requiring vaccinations (with no long-term safety data whatsoever) against Covid for people to go to public establishments? Did you ever need proof of a polio vaccine to get into Equinox?
Hi! Thanks for asking! I very much am drawing that comparison, because there is literally no--and I mean that, literally no --evidence from a credible source to suggest that the possibility exists in terms of actual pathways to a long-term problem. Should that evidence be forthcoming from sources with a credible tether to reality, I will re-evaluate my position, but unlike so many of the fearful types who insist one…
It seems unfair to point out the lack of evidence of long-term side effects when there hasn't been enough time for them to appear. Did we have any evidence that thalidomide was harmful in pregnant women before babies started being born with birth defects?
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#675Earlier quoted context omitted.
Vaccination in NY/NYC is easily proven. Picture of your vaccine card is sufficent and there's also the excelsior pass which is a QR code. Super easy to get from a city/state website after entering a few details (think name, when your last vaccine was, which vaccine etc). This can be downloaded as an image, into apple wallet etc. For those who chose not to, they can stick to carrying around their vaccine card (just as…
In response to 'but its literally no different than having to get a vaccine to travel to certain countries', we literally (as in have a literal - written word - constitution) that explicitly prohibits the prevention of movement between the states in the same way that we do between countries. There is a quite literal, and federally-mandated, difference. You literally aren't even allowed to ask for someone's ID to cros…
No one is suggesting requiring medical records at internal US borders (which, incidentally, the Constitution does not prohibit, though it doesn't allow states to unilaterally adopt such controls), so your entire argument
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#676Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…
NPR yesterday was interviewing a guy who'd had an organ transplant and thus has to take immunosuppressant drugs. He'd been vaccinated, it was either pfizer or moderna. His doctor tested him for antibodies, his were undetectable. He was getting a third shot in hopes it would finally give him antibodies. By being against vaccines or against vaccine requirements, people risk the lives of those like that guy, who's alrea…
You can support vaccines without support a government mandate of them and all the operational xlusterfuxks that come with that
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#677Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…
NPR yesterday was interviewing a guy who'd had an organ transplant and thus has to take immunosuppressant drugs. He'd been vaccinated, it was either pfizer or moderna. His doctor tested him for antibodies, his were undetectable. He was getting a third shot in hopes it would finally give him antibodies. By being against vaccines or against vaccine requirements, people risk the lives of those like that guy, who's alrea…
The real question though is do policies like this affect change or do they only stoke animosity. This is a sincere question.
Do we know that the activities where vaccines are required are in fact hotspots? If you consider states that did full lockdowns compared to those that didn't but had mask mandates (California and New York vs texas Florida), there wasn't an appreciable difference in cases or deaths suggesting the mechanism of transition lied outside the reach of government. What's to say people still won't congregate elsewhere?
In turn, I'm not convinced this will incentivize people to vaccinate. My mother refuses to get the shot and digs in more against it as penalties show up. Sure this is and data, but I know that many, many people have left New York City due to what they considered draconian lockdowns and I suspect many more people might leave to "freer" pastures.
I'm not convinced this will achieve the intended objective, but instead far more animosity and pushback which is what you see in this thread which is far more tame than what the general population thinks.
Would love to hear a rebuttal.
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#678Vaccine requirements have been in place for decades. For pre-K in NYC kids need shots for PCV and Hib. For kindergarten they need more shots: Hep B, Polio, Chickenpox, and Measles, Mumps and Rubella. Going to middle school? Then you'll need more shots, the TDAP and meningococcal conjugate. These are all vaccine requirements. Is it an invasion or privacy to demand children's records? Is it the nanny state? We could go…
No, you are bringing up extreme examples. Other vaccines: > It is not known how long people who received IPV will be immune to poliovirus, but they are most likely protected for many years after a complete series of IPV. >Measles vaccines became available in 1963. If you got the standard two doses of the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine after 1967, you should be protected against the measles for life. >Sever…
> based on Israel, the vaccine is also losing efficacy after 3-6 months so they are giving a 3rd shot now
A study[0] released last week shows that the Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness is still in the high 80s/low 90s after 6 months, and still 97% effective at preventing severe symptoms and hospitalizations.
When compared to the annual flu vaccine, where the VE typically falls in the 30s and 40s, this vaccine is remarkably effective, even after 6 months.
[0] https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261159v...
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#679Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…
> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…
The flu virus can and has mutated in the past to become extremely deadly (see 1918). Why is it different this time? Why should it be treated differently than the flu, when it comes to variants? I think everyone should get vaccinated, but I want to fill in all logical holes to help this debate.
Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings
#680Earlier quoted context omitted.
Vaccination in NY/NYC is easily proven. Picture of your vaccine card is sufficent and there's also the excelsior pass which is a QR code. Super easy to get from a city/state website after entering a few details (think name, when your last vaccine was, which vaccine etc). This can be downloaded as an image, into apple wallet etc. For those who chose not to, they can stick to carrying around their vaccine card (just as…
>Vaccination in NY/NYC is easily proven. Picture of your vaccine card is sufficent That’s easily faked. To prove vaccination, a picture of a card is not sufficient. If that’s all that’s required as proof then this won’t accomplish anything meaningful.
Perhaps, but so far this isn't a problem. Let's stay focused on the actual problems that we're facing. Maybe some businesses as you suggest will refuse a picture and only accept the physical card. So far this may be up to businesses to decide for themselves.
This is otherwise whataboutism about an issue that isn't an issue.
FWIW, the excelsior pass may be far harder to fake and end up being a solution to this currently non-problem