NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#371

Post by timr » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 8:13 PM UTC

clukic wrote: post #312

timr wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The vulnerable populations aren't vaccinated. The vaccination rate in Brooklyn for people 65+ is just a bit over 50% (51% white/54% African American). Yes, they are. In NYC, 73% of adults over 65 are fully vaccinated, and 77% have had at least one dose: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-vaccines.p... You're cherry-picking regions of low vaccination, but ignoring the overall metrics.

It's the local demographics that matter. I live in Brooklyn. I don't care what the vaccination rate is in the entire US, or NY state, and I'm hardly ever in Manhattan. I don't dine indoors because the vaccination rate in my neighborhood is 39%. And, while I'm probably not going to the hospital knowing that I might put one of my unvaccinated neighbors in there matters to me.

> It's the local demographics that matter

The local demographics don't matter unless there's a serious impact on the hospitals. That's why we started down this road, remember? It wasn't to eliminate death.

> I don't dine indoors because the vaccination rate in my neighborhood is 39%.

Are you vaccinated? If you are, you're worrying about something that is irrelevant to you. Avoiding restaurants because other people made a different choice is silly.

> And, while I'm probably not going to the hospital knowing that I might put one of my unvaccinated neighbors in there matters to me.

Ever had a head cold or the flu? You've put an elderly person at risk. Sorry, but it's true.

You can never eliminate this kind of risk. If your standard is "I must never present a risk to anyone else, ever" then you're going to have a really difficult life. You can live that way if you like, but don't force it on me.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#372

Post by srcreigh » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

mrtksn wrote: post #295

srcreigh wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the harm in letting unvaccinated people spread covid amongst themselves? Vaccinated people aren't at risk. Unvaccinated people know the risks and they've had plenty of time to be vaccinated. It's not illegal to decide to do $XYZ_DANGEROUS_ACTIVITY, why should it be illegal to be exposed to covid? The only concern in theory is that a vaccine-immune covid variant could develop amongst unvaccinated populations. I…

> What's the harm in letting unvaccinated people spread covid amongst themselves? Vaccinated people aren't at risk. Plenty of risks. 1) You are giving a chance for spreading a vaccine resistant strain. Every time a vaccinated person is exposed to the virus, most likely the immune system would take care of it however there’s a risk that it would contain a vaccine resistant mutation and will spread among vaccinated, cr…

Re 1) and 2), is there evidence that there are less covid mutations amongst vaccinated populations? I'm no epidemiologist, but maybe covid would achieve vaccine resistance better in a vaccinated population right?

Regarding 3), Bill Gates wrote that ~70% immunity is all that's needed to eliminate covid. I'm curious for better info regarding that number too. It would imply that as many as 30% of people can remain unvaccinated and covid will still die out.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#373

Post by chadash » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 8:14 PM UTC

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #341

chadash wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, I'd be much more comfortable going out if I knew everyone around me would be vaccinated.

But a lot of them can still be positive (i think 30% with AZ vaccine), and somehow noone tests the vaccinated ones, so you'd never know, and most of them are asymptomatic, so they don't even know it. I got my vaccine early on, and haven't been tested since.

Still a lot of unknowns, but seems pretty clear that vaccinated people are less likely to contract and spread. So I like my odds better among a vaccinated crowd.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#374

Post by standardUser » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

rPlayer6554 wrote: post #67

eropple wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many compulsory vaccines were necessary for you to attend school? For me, it was three or four at least, and until some genuinely inimical people decided vaccines were a good way to get famous at the expense of the body politic, nobody cared .

Those vaccines have had years of use behind them. The coronavirus mRNA vaccines are a completely new technology and haven't even been given anything past emergency approval. This is an apples and oranges comparison.

"The coronavirus mRNA vaccines are a completely new technology"

There have been mRNA vaccines in human clinical trials for around 10 years and they have been studied for around 30 years. There are countless examples of other non-controversial medicines developed and studied for far shorter lengths of time.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#375

Post by heavyset_go » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #17

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

> You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? As someone who is vaccinated, I'm frankly tired of wearing masks, and I don't feel I should have to wear one to protect someone else who is refusing a vaccine.

Consider the people for whom the vaccine won't work for, or will be less effective for, like anyone on immune system suppressants because of transplants, or some cancer patients/survivors, or those taking immunosuppressants and biologics for things like Crohn's, UC, multiple sclerosis, arthritis, etc.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#376

Post by 908B64B197 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 8:16 PM UTC

drngdds wrote: post #361

908B64B197 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and then let people make their own decisions about what to do. Exactly. Governments need to figure out why people aren't getting vaccinated and fix those issues.

The biggest reason is disinformation coming from social media and conservative media outlets. That can't be fixed while respecting the first amendment.

So? Get conservative doctors to endorse it. Or show outcomes and make sure risks are mitigated/taken care of.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#377

Post by starlust2 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 8:17 PM UTC

_red wrote: post #365

JoshTko wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A high vaccination rate is most beneficial for poor and minority populations as they are by far the most exposed to the virus via work.

High vaccination rates will only exert selection pressure on the virus causing new mutation strains to become dominant. How is this not understood? Vaccines should only be used for targeted at-risk population. Everyone else should strive for natural immunity.

The same selection pressure exists for "natural" immunity.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 8:17 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Post by kian » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 8:18 PM UTC

bern4444 wrote: post #62

wdhilliard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is that the whole thing is based on old data and a false premise that life is safe when vaccinated people are only around vaccinated people. We know this is slightly more true than among the unvaccinated, but only by about 40%. This is real data. Fears of privacy implications: Tracking data/metadata, How data is recorded, How long are records kept. What other data is linked to vaccination checks? Fears of…

Vaccination in NY/NYC is easily proven. Picture of your vaccine card is sufficent and there's also the excelsior pass which is a QR code. Super easy to get from a city/state website after entering a few details (think name, when your last vaccine was, which vaccine etc). This can be downloaded as an image, into apple wallet etc. For those who chose not to, they can stick to carrying around their vaccine card (just as…

In response to 'but its literally no different than having to get a vaccine to travel to certain countries', we literally (as in have a literal - written word - constitution) that explicitly prohibits the prevention of movement between the states in the same way that we do between countries.

There is a quite literal, and federally-mandated, difference.

You literally aren't even allowed to ask for someone's ID to cross internal US borders - but you think medical records, which contain just as much (if not more) personally-identifying information would be okay?

"Show me your papers, please."

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#380

Post by ashtonkem » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 8:19 PM UTC

clukic wrote: post #197

Vaccine requirements have been in place for decades. For pre-K in NYC kids need shots for PCV and Hib. For kindergarten they need more shots: Hep B, Polio, Chickenpox, and Measles, Mumps and Rubella. Going to middle school? Then you'll need more shots, the TDAP and meningococcal conjugate. These are all vaccine requirements. Is it an invasion or privacy to demand children's records? Is it the nanny state? We could go…

Honestly, I think a lot of people here without kids have absolutely no idea that you need to prove immunization in order to attend school.

What’s funnier still to me is men (it always seems to be men) outraged that they might need to prove vaccination in order to send their kids back to school, publicly admitting that they’ve been fobbing that work off on their spouse.