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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#651

Post by Spellman »

dotcommand wrote: post #331
psychometry wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Delta variant necessitates a higher level of herd immunity because it's so much more transmissible. > Everyone has to be vaccinated and we must all prove it to exist in society ( even people who had covid )? So, it isn't about herd immunity anymore? It isn't about stopping covid, but getting everyone the vaccine and forcing them to carry identification everywhere? No, it's very obviously about stopping covid. Don't b…

> Delta variant necessitates a higher level of herd immunity because it's so much more transmissible. How much higher? 100%? > No, it's very obviously about stopping covid. Then why are those who already got covid told to get the vaccines? Doesn't make much sense does it? > Don't be obtuse. Are you part of the team downvoting anyone who is simple asking basic questions? The covid brigading is rather obvious and hilar…

Delta appears to have about a 2x R_o over the original Covid strain. So, yes, that requires a much higher herd immunity to get transmission rates below 1.0

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#652

Post by _ph_ »

timr wrote: post #169
platz wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. For now...

Well then, by that logic, we can never let up on this. You never know what's going to happen in two weeks!

The first thing is to get the number of infections down. If the number of infections is low, then any bad event becomes accordingly less likely. Less mutations, less breakthrough infections.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#653

Post by deft »

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

This is one of the strangest comments here, but you're trying to be rational while breaking down the vast majority of the worldwide population into one of 3 positions? You know most places don't have these mandates and never will? And things will be fine.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#654

Post by jchoca »

timr wrote: post #129
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

>Those who choose not to get vaccinated are making a risk calculation; they are making a choice.

Yes, but that choice does not only impact them. Being disallowed the luxury of going to restaurants and bars could be seen as a form of payment for creating that externality.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#655

Post by Barrin92 »

bingohbangoh wrote: post #576
Barrin92 wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…

Won’t there always be a variant popping up somewhere in some part of the world though? The idea that “if we all got vaccinated, we could have zero variants” reeks of “zero COVID” thinking

the dynamic is a feedback loop in either direction. More vaccinations means slowdown of spread which means slower rate of mutation and in turn easier ways to control the virus. Faster transmission means faster rate of mutations and having a harder time controlling the virus.

'Zero covid' or near-zero covid anyway does not 'reek' because it is perfectly attainable. The virus could be squashed pretty much completely. The fact that we cannot do it is the result of institutionalized failure, resignation and normalization of dysfunction, not actually a matter of fact.

We have in fact eradicated one highly transmittable, airborne virus through a global vaccination effort already, namely smallpox. And that was almost half a century ago.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#656

Post by tehjoker »

jb775 wrote: post #608
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate The goal is to avoid overloading the hospital system. Vaccinated people spreading the Delta variant amongst each other is not going to do that. Unvaccinated people getting sick will.

HOSPITALS HAVE LITERALLY BEEN EMPTY SINCE DAY 1.

Tell that to my doctor friends that have seen many COVID patients fill up the ICU and die.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#657

Post by nradov »

heavyset_go wrote: post #260
cm2187 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the only reasons people wouldn't want to take the vaccine. For instance lots of people already had covid (particularly in NYC), and developed a natural immunity, which from the low reinfection rate, seems to be rock solid. It doesn't make a lot of sense to require that population to take a vaccine. As for the vaccine being more or less dangerous than the virus, I think for any population over 40 or in poor…

> For instance lots of people already had covid (particularly in NYC) According to NYC.gov[1], there have been about 980k cases of COVID in a city with a population of over 8 million. About 12% of the population has had COVID. [1] https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data-totals.pag...

There's no way that only 12% of New Yorkers have been infected. The CDC estimates 36% for the country as a whole. If anything I'll bet NYC is higher.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#658

Post by lr4444lr »

timr wrote: post #438
rubicon33 wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We should be reacting rationally to rates of hospitalization and deaths -- and right now, those are barely changed in NYC, No. No. No. No. No. Why is this so hard for people to understand? A virus doesn't just enter your body, and quietly go away. In MANY cases, it can have a lasting effect on your underlying health and wellness. This isn't a point of question, it's a known FACT that is all too often left out of th…

Thank you for providing an excellent example of the fear-based reasoning surrounding "cases". I understand that you are scared, but is incorrect to imply that my opinion comes from a lack of understanding of what you're talking about. > Why is this so hard for people to understand? I understand your argument, but I disagree with you, based on a long education in this area, a deep understanding of the data, and person…

Does it bother you that schools ask for proof of measles vaccination? Most people recover from that too if infected during the school age years.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#659

Post by timr »

Barrin92 wrote: post #553
timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…

> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion.

You can certainly go down this path, and dismiss everyone who disagrees with you as "children", but what you value is not the same as what everyone else values.

I am willing to balance the risk of never having a normal life again with an overall risk of illness and death that is on par with every other year I have been alive.

Eventually, I too will become old and frail, and become vulnerable to some virus or another. If I ever become so afraid of death that I demand that other people give up their basic human rights to "keep me safe", then I hope that illness takes me quickly after that. I don't want to live in the world you propose.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#660

Post by Hippocrates »

So they're requiring vaccination in "many indoor settings", which just includes restaurants, movie theaters and gyms... Those are luxuries.

What are people up in arms about then? Its like another take on the mask mandate outrage, where people conflated selfishness with freedom, except this time you can still do everything you need to while being non-compliant.

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