NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#581

Post by josephcsible » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #355

timr wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have never required anything like this to go to a restaurant . Or the gym. Or the beach. This is a huge new step. Pointing out that children must be vaccinated against viruses that disproportionately harm children in order to participate in public education is true, but irrelevant to the question. Pointing out that we require certain vaccinations of immigrants is true, but irrelevant to the question. (Not for noth…

> We have never required anything like this to go to a restaurant . Or the gym. Or the beach. This is a huge new step. Indeed, instead there used to be mandatory, involuntary quarantine enforcement, sometimes (typhus, polio) on a per-household basis with the enforcement notice posted prominently on the front door. That restricted not only restaurants and beach visits but all visits of any kind.

Weren't these quarantines limited to people who actually had the diseases, not just people who weren't vaccinated against them?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#582

Post by swayvil » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #553

timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…

He says : It's irrational. It's intrusive. It's over-reach.

You reply : But the threat is so great that such is justified.

I have heard this dialog before.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#583

Post by paraph1n » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

SergeAx wrote: post #570

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Anecdotal case: I got covid this January, quite symptomatic, full anosmia, high fever and about 20% of lungs damaged. Since then I contacted freshly infected people at least twice. Both of them became sick 1-2 days after contact, one with proved Delta variant. In both cases I self-quarantined and get mild symptoms for 2-3 days: light fever, partial anosmia. Both time I got significant increase of IgG antibodies. So I…

> or get a better immunity than any vaccine can offer.

Better immunity? Almost no one who is fully vaccinated has ever died from COVID-19. It's hard to imagine better immunity than that.

> society should allow it because those people will either die on they own knowledge, or get a better immunity than any vaccine can offer.

Or they will serve as a mutation vector for the next, more transmissible, deadlier variant.

I guess it comes down to whether you favor a rational society based on the rule of law and some degree of fairness, or a free-for-all anarchy where the only rule is natural selection.

The latter is what we had before society was invented some thousands of years ago.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#584

Post by notJim » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #571

notJim wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a cite? I thought vaccination reduced hospitalization to nearly zero. Here's a link where the highest state is at .06% https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-vaccine-breakthrou...

"the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine is 96% effective against hospitalisation after 2 doses; the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is 92% effective against hospitalisation after 2 doses" https://www.gov.uk/government/news/vaccines-highly-effective...

That's relative risk, not absolute risk. It's not saying 8% of people will be hospitalized, it's saying vaccinated people are hospitalized 92% less than unvaccinated people. Your absolute risk is much much smaller than 8%.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#585

Post by sprafa » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

throwaway842384 wrote: post #343

sprafa wrote: post #94

By not getting vaccinated you are pushing the onus of responsibility to society. When you occupy a bed in a hospital for a preventable disease (like covid post-vaccine) you are a detriment to society. You are occupying precious resources because you were dumb. Just dumb. No ifs or buts - we need to start calling out stupidity again. We already handle people occupying hospital resources with self inflicted diseases, l…

Now let's do obesity. From the CDC [1]: > From 1999–2000 through 2017 –2018, US obesity prevalence increased from 30.5% to 42.4%. During the same time, the prevalence of severe obesity increased from 4.7% to 9.2%. > Obesity-related conditions include heart disease, stroke, type 2 diabetes and certain types of cancer. These are among the leading causes of preventable, premature death. > The estimated annual medical co…

This is just a fallacious argument but you know this. Saying “if x is true then why not y also” is just a false dillemma. Not sure who you are but potentially just a russian bot troll of some kind.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#586

Post by wtfzse » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

5th amendment - read it, learn it, love it

this entire "mandate" is a complete farce

Anyone that asks for it - take it the courts as it will be struck down hard.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#587

Post by ipaddr » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:15 PM UTC

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Giving a small list and saying everyone must fit into these boxes is incomplete logic.

You could be anti-needle. You could have health issues. You could be in an isolated community. You could have got the vaccine and are not worried about their kid.

You could be anything.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#588

Post by paraph1n » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:16 PM UTC

NonContro wrote: post #328

stickfigure wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Residents of the US have self-selected into two cohorts: 1) People that will get resistance via vaccines 2) People that will get resistance via infection Some 30-40% of the US population decided on #2. Roughly 0.7% of them will die because of that decision, but this is exactly what they are asking for ! If you are in cohort #1, you really don't have a lot to worry about from the virus. Why are you denying people the…

You're ignoring that a significant portion of #2 have already got resistance via infection. There is no point whatsoever for those people to get vaccinated, apart from padding out the pockets of Big Pharma. With the scale of vaccinations that we already have, COVID is firmly in the realm of influenza in terms of potential future deathtoll. In fact, for much of this year the UK had higher influenza deaths than COVID d…

> Why don't we pressure people to get influenza vaccines yearly?

At least here in the US, we absolutely do.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#589

Post by starlust2 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:17 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #399

starlust2 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. only has around 600 deaths from TB per year. Covid was 100x more deaths with lockdowns and other restrictions factored in. Not even remotely the same thing.

Sorry that I wasn't clear, I'm not from the US, I know this is an US-article but I see that push to get to zero covid cases in many places, no matter the continent. Probably covid deaths will trickle down to 500-600 per year in places like the US in a few years, a combination of higher access to vaccines and better health facilities, and the number will remain high in places like India/SE Asia, just like it now happe…

The US numbers still show that TB can be mitigated without intrusive widespread restrictions.

The majority of deaths occur in sub-Saharan Africa and SE Asia. That leads me to believe that the differentiator is access to medical care, primarily access to life saving drugs.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#590

Post by rgarrett88 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:17 PM UTC

SergeAx wrote: post #570

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Anecdotal case: I got covid this January, quite symptomatic, full anosmia, high fever and about 20% of lungs damaged. Since then I contacted freshly infected people at least twice. Both of them became sick 1-2 days after contact, one with proved Delta variant. In both cases I self-quarantined and get mild symptoms for 2-3 days: light fever, partial anosmia. Both time I got significant increase of IgG antibodies. So I…

We know now that vaccination status and even natural immunity is not stopping people from virus transmission, so this argument is off the table.

We've always known that some percent of those vaccinated will transmit the virus. The vaccine's effectiveness is not 100%. The point, among other reasons, is it reduces transmission.