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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#491

Post by jaywalk »

timr wrote: post #129
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2.

This is demonstrably false if you actually look at hospital admissions.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#492

Post by RHSeeger »

_red wrote: post #365
JoshTko wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A high vaccination rate is most beneficial for poor and minority populations as they are by far the most exposed to the virus via work.

High vaccination rates will only exert selection pressure on the virus causing new mutation strains to become dominant. How is this not understood? Vaccines should only be used for targeted at-risk population. Everyone else should strive for natural immunity.

A high vaccination rate prevents the spread of the disease. Yes, if you have a consistent rate of spread, then the more people with the vaccine, the more likely mutation is to survive. However, if the virus can't spread in the first place, it's chance to mutate is near zero.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#493

Post by timr »

kaybe wrote: post #477
timr wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for providing an excellent example of the fear-based reasoning surrounding "cases". I understand that you are scared, but is incorrect to imply that my opinion comes from a lack of understanding of what you're talking about. > Why is this so hard for people to understand? I understand your argument, but I disagree with you, based on a long education in this area, a deep understanding of the data, and person…

> Every time I get a head cold, I typically develop a cough that lasts > 3 weeks. Just a heads-up, that can turn into asthma if you are susceptible. Take care to properly heal every time. (That'd be 'long cold' I guess. We don't need more of that stuff.)

Thanks! I'm already allergic to a lot of stuff, so it probably is related.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#494

Post by yupper32 »

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #466
yupper32 wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You lose all credibility when you bring up the Biden/Harris comments. At the time we were at the point where it was a real possibility that Trump would push out the vaccine regardless of the status of trials, etc. Trump kept saying dates and deadlines for all sorts of things throughout the pandemic that had no basis in reality, to the point that pushing out the vaccine early was a real possibility, just to make him l…

If the vaccine had been rushed under trump it would have been malicious, but if the vaccine is rushed under Biden it's kosher? This is partisan logic and pointing it out doesn't make someone right-wing.

It wasn't rushed under Biden, at least in the sense that it didn't skip any steps or ignore trial data (the whole vaccine process was as quick as possible under both Presidents, of course).

There was a real worry that it would be maliciously rushed under Trump.

Imagine this: Trump guts the FDA leadership and installs fringe scientists. Those scientists then skip steps, ignore trial data, and push out the vaccine.

If you think that was a far out possibility, then you're likely right-wing. The Scott Atlas situation alone should convince you that this was possible, let alone everything else about Trump.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#495

Post by rajup »

heavyset_go wrote: post #375
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? As someone who is vaccinated, I'm frankly tired of wearing masks, and I don't feel I should have to wear one to protect someone else who is refusing a vaccine.

Consider the people for whom the vaccine won't work for, or will be less effective for, like anyone on immune system suppressants because of transplants, or some cancer patients/survivors, or those taking immunosuppressants and biologics for things like Crohn's, UC, multiple sclerosis, arthritis, etc.

So these people should be wearing masks then? Sounds reasonable to me, not sure how imposing masks on vaccinated people helps.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#496

Post by polynomial »

jaywalk wrote: post #491
timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. This is demonstrably false if you actually look at hospital admissions.

I'm not meaning to take sides here, but there are very real assertions being made that at the very least vaccination lowers the statistical probability of death to <1%, which is obviously seems like something we can verify with admission and fatality data.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#497

Post by ceilingcorner »

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

How about...

4) You recognize this as yet another crisis that the government is using to unconstitutionally increase its powers. 9/11 and the Patriot Act and Iraq/Afghanistan being a recent example.

This stuff happens again and again and yet somehow the default position is “convince me why this is a bad thing.”

History education needs more funding, and fast.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#498

Post by biztos »

timr wrote: post #129
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

The country I’m in right now, Hungary, seems to be doing as you suggest.

They have about 75% vaccinated I think (a mix of just about all the vaccines available anywhere) and there is no mask mandate nor proof-of-vaccine mandate as of a few weeks ago. (Airport might be an exception, I haven’t been.). Interestingly it is also against the law to require anyone to NOT wear a mask — and I see about one person in 10 with a mask on the tram, usually none in the shops.

Border controls to neighbor countries are very light so there isn’t really anything preventing the unvaccinated or for that matter infected from entering the country.

I have no idea how this will turn out, I personally expect a big new wave among the unvaxxed in Europe after the summer, but if you’re curious what happens with an implicit policy of leaving the unvaccinated to their fate, keep an eye on Hungary, especially when the cold drives everyone indoors around October.

(And there were a LOT of restrictions before the vaccination rate went up, but unlike Germany nobody was out protesting against them.)

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#499

Post by shaicoleman »

rubicon33 wrote: post #405
timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> We should be reacting rationally to rates of hospitalization and deaths -- and right now, those are barely changed in NYC, No. No. No. No. No. Why is this so hard for people to understand? A virus doesn't just enter your body, and quietly go away. In MANY cases, it can have a lasting effect on your underlying health and wellness. This isn't a point of question, it's a known FACT that is all too often left out of th…

> One of them still doesn't have their sense of taste and smell back, after nearly 3 weeks post symptoms. They describe being brain fog, and tiredness that they didn't have before, as well as an "itch" in their lungs when exercising that they didn't have before.

They'd might want to look into the I-RECOVER Protocol for treating Long COVID:

https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/i-recover...

https://youtu.be/ZCYM2HW2Ayw?t=321

Also there's emerging data suggesting Long COVID symptoms are being triggered by the reactivation of the Epstein Barr Virus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8233978/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAmH7IpUpbI

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#500

Post by jdhn »

bart_spoon wrote: post #266
bsagdiyev wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you’re vaccinated then you’re not at risk? I say as a vaccinated person.

What about the immunocompromised? Those who can’t have the vaccine. To say nothing of breakthrough infections and the fact that the mutation rate is tied to the number of infections, and therefore a vaccinated person’s immunity could indeed be impacted by large contingents of unvaccinated persons being infected. And how about the financial cost of COVID? Perhaps we should make it so that if one gets severe COVID and…

This focus on the immunocompromised is so strange to me. Bad flu season? Nobody really cared about them. Bad cold season? Again, nobody really cared about them. Yet covid comes around, the vaccines are produced, and suddenly everyone keeps talking about the immunocompromised. At some point, we have to just tell those who are immunocompromised that we're going to reopen society, and they have to be responsible for managing their own risk.
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