South Korea: The only middle power of its kind • Hacker News Board

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#291

Post by garden_hermit » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

keewee7 wrote: post #117

calmd wrote: post #7

SK is committing demographic suicide though, so whatever you think of its success, it has a pretty fatal disease. It has the lowest birthrate in the world. This is going to cause significant economic problems quite soon, or they will have to open up massive immigration which will completely change the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_birth_rate_in_South_Korea How does the developed world pull out of this ty…

The solution is immigration but with high barrier to entry. I live in Denmark, a country portrayed as anti-immigrant by American and British media. However there is no opposition to educated professional immigrants from India, China, Iran and Eastern Europe. Brain drain of these countries could be a problem but countries like India and Iran are probably producing many more highly educated individuals than they can do…

Studies mostly show that, in the long run, family-based immigration policies lead to more economic growth than the "best and brightest". Basically, forming immigrant communities is useful—they provide support to new entrants, and lead to better outcomes for everyone. Importing a few educated doctors, rather than families or broader populations, leads to less long-term benefit.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#292

Post by pepperonipizza » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

calmd wrote: post #7

SK is committing demographic suicide though, so whatever you think of its success, it has a pretty fatal disease. It has the lowest birthrate in the world. This is going to cause significant economic problems quite soon, or they will have to open up massive immigration which will completely change the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_birth_rate_in_South_Korea How does the developed world pull out of this ty…

These countries must invest in ectogenesis. I really don't understand why this is never talked about when the low fertility rate in the developed world is discussed.

South Korea has invested billions in trying to have its fertility rate increase by giving incentives to couples, it has only worsen.

We must get to the idea that it will be almost impossible in the developed world to get back to a fertility rate above 2.

Ectogenesis can be one of the solution.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#293

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

slothtrop wrote: post #178

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's only so much juice you can squeeze out of a shrinking workforce, though. And as retirees continue to make up a larger portion of the popular vote - they'll continue to demand more from a shrinking workforce. At some point (I imagine in my lifetime) - the straw will break the camel's back.

Automation is progressing faster than new 'types' of jobs are created. In many sectors they'll be poised to be oversaturated with workers. Owners are happy to remove the human element wherever reasonably possible.

[deleted]

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#294

Post by paulryanrogers » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

jimbob45 wrote: post #286

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's only so much juice you can squeeze out of a shrinking workforce, though. And as retirees continue to make up a larger portion of the popular vote - they'll continue to demand more from a shrinking workforce. At some point (I imagine in my lifetime) - the straw will break the camel's back.

I hate this viewpoint. It makes it seem like retirees are a nefarious bunch who are taking advantage of youngsters. In reality, age discrimination makes it nigh impossible to land a meaningful job once you're over the age of 60.

Agree that age discrimination is a big, complicating factor. Saw this impact a very qualified family member who had to tap some connections in their network of past coworkers just to find a mediocre role. (They're massively over qualified.)

I think another reason for some negative feelings is the appearance that some generations have pulled up the ladder after their accent: in real estate, pensions, healthcare, etc.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#295

Post by js2 » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #254

spothedog1 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was almost entirely due to America rebuilding Europe and every other major industrial power knocked off their perch for a couple of decades. It had nothing to do with immigration. Additionally Americans were still having lots of kids at that point so the population was growing without immigratiom.

Those European countries also developed fast without much immigration (including Switzerland and the Nordics, which were not affected much by the war). It may have nothing to do with immigration, but you certainly haven't proved that. Edit: Currently the poorest parts of the US population are stagnating at best, at a time when rates of both legal and illegal immigration are quite high. It is hard to make the argument…

> Currently the poorest parts of the US population are stagnating at best, at a time when rates of both legal and illegal immigration are quite high. It is hard to make the argument that immigration is preventing things from getting worse.

An argument that immigration is a net positive for the economy:

https://www.thebalance.com/how-immigration-impacts-the-econo...

Some anecdotes of small towns being saved by immigration:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/local/gray-matters/article/...

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2019/08/15/hmong-immigrants-he...

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#296

Post by spothedog1 » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 7:24 PM UTC

throw37388 wrote: post #284

spothedog1 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limited supply of housing is an artificial local government constraint using tools like zoning and permitting to stop the construction of new housing keep prices high for incumbent owners. I agree it’s a huge problem but I would rather fight the constraint on supply than limit demand (partially immigrants) when they contribute so much else. We shouldn’t restrict economic growth and deny millions of people the chance…

Please. We have 40% unemployment in Greece among young people. Housing is bloody expensive to build. It is not some goverment conspiracy! Did you actually try to immigrate into US? It is one of the worst countries at accepting immigration. Any normal country gives citizenship after 5 years of residency. In US it is like 30 years. And from far away it looks like your melting pot is broken. Too many groups fighting eac…

Not familiar with housing in Greece. I should have clarified I’m talking about the US where housing is quite cheap to build but regulations make it illegal to build most types of housing.

I was born in the US but a lot of my family are immigrants and I know how tough the system is, I’m arguing to make it much easier.

I’m sure on the outside it does look broken and there are lots of issues to fix, but take a walk around pretty much any American urban metro area and it’s working amazingly well.

I can understand the situation in Greece is much different, especially when compare the amount of refugees compared to the population of Greece. But I think a lot of the issues boil down to Greece having a quite shit economy at the moment causing more issues. If jobs were abundant in Greece then I think immigration wouldn’t be as contentious. Although that’s just me taking from no experience. I’m interested in hearing your view.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#297

Post by hackeraccount » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 7:26 PM UTC

csomar wrote: post #124

calmd wrote: post #7

SK is committing demographic suicide though, so whatever you think of its success, it has a pretty fatal disease. It has the lowest birthrate in the world. This is going to cause significant economic problems quite soon, or they will have to open up massive immigration which will completely change the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_birth_rate_in_South_Korea How does the developed world pull out of this ty…

Not really. Immigration has become an issue lately because a human (or a bare-human) is worth much less. 1.000 years ago a bare illiterate human had some considerable value. He could work in the field or he could fight. More humans, more food and production. More humans, more manpower to fight your enemies. Now a bare semi-educated human is a liability. Which is why most countries are refusing their entrance. Times h…

If true it's a mistake. Education is a piss poor measure of people's ability to contribute.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#298

Post by hackeraccount » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

pepperonipizza wrote: post #292

calmd wrote: post #7

SK is committing demographic suicide though, so whatever you think of its success, it has a pretty fatal disease. It has the lowest birthrate in the world. This is going to cause significant economic problems quite soon, or they will have to open up massive immigration which will completely change the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_birth_rate_in_South_Korea How does the developed world pull out of this ty…

These countries must invest in ectogenesis. I really don't understand why this is never talked about when the low fertility rate in the developed world is discussed. South Korea has invested billions in trying to have its fertility rate increase by giving incentives to couples, it has only worsen. We must get to the idea that it will be almost impossible in the developed world to get back to a fertility rate above 2.…

You'd have to know the fundamental reason why people in SK (or anywhere) aren't having kids. Maybe it's women not wanting to be pregnant or give birth but maybe it's not - if it's for example, people aren't up for the investment that kids require then ectogenesis will get you nowhere.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#299

Post by spothedog1 » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

ses1984 wrote: post #279

spothedog1 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is inaccurate. More people, even low skilled ones are still a huge benefit to your society. They buy goods and services in the local economy increasing demand and work tax paying jobs. Immigrants children grow up to greatly out earn their parents pay way more in taxes than they their parents. The only immigrant group that could be considered a liability are older low skilled workers who have passed the age to ha…

You’re thinking in humanistic terms, not geopolitical terms.

I’m thinking in purely economic terms

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#300

Post by simmanian » Tue, Aug 03, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

IdiocyInAction wrote: post #272

simmanian wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give you another perspective, I would say that many East Asians living in the West don't feel like they actually belong there either. I moved to west coast America when I was a child. I still remember vividly the first thing I heard and understood in class. It was another kid telling me that I'm a "stupid Asian." The barrier is there. We feel it. And let's not pretend Europe is better about this.

There are Japanese-only establishments in Japan. Ever seen those in the west?

I was hoping people would find it in themselves to try to rid the world of these invisible barriers instead of pointing out how "they do it worse than we do."