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South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

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Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#271

Post by spothedog1 »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #254
spothedog1 wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was almost entirely due to America rebuilding Europe and every other major industrial power knocked off their perch for a couple of decades. It had nothing to do with immigration. Additionally Americans were still having lots of kids at that point so the population was growing without immigratiom.

Those European countries also developed fast without much immigration (including Switzerland and the Nordics, which were not affected much by the war). It may have nothing to do with immigration, but you certainly haven't proved that. Edit: Currently the poorest parts of the US population are stagnating at best, at a time when rates of both legal and illegal immigration are quite high. It is hard to make the argument…

Yea they were mostly rebuilding the physical world and not having to completely rebuild society from the ground. Small countries like the Nordics aren’t great examples because they’re so small and a massive part of their wealth came from selling oil to the wider world. The amount of oil revenue generated per person in those countries allowed them develop such a high standard of living along with really smart and egalitarian government policy and investment. That’s not really repeatable for a country as large as the US although money could certainly be used better.

France invited large amounts of immigrants from Africa to help rebuild so it’s not like they didn’t see immigration.

I think there are two main reasons that the poorest parts of the population are stagnating. One is poverty traps, and especially multi generational poverty traps are very hard to escape. Another is geographic location. Americans dont move as much as they used to, all around the world poorer people move to areas with more jobs and opportunity but today mostly richer people move and poorer people stay put in areas that are impoverished.

Immigrants largely don’t come with a set geography or generational poverty weighing them down which is why their kids do so well.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#272

Post by IdiocyInAction »

simmanian wrote: post #211
mathverse wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cant just easily immigrate to CJK countries.You will not become a part of the society.That's just impossible.Not even those of us that married koreans,speak the language and know the customs are that accepted in the society.We are tolerated and easily live and work there but you will never become korean or japanese or chinese. You will always be the "foreigner".

To give you another perspective, I would say that many East Asians living in the West don't feel like they actually belong there either. I moved to west coast America when I was a child. I still remember vividly the first thing I heard and understood in class. It was another kid telling me that I'm a "stupid Asian." The barrier is there. We feel it. And let's not pretend Europe is better about this.

There are Japanese-only establishments in Japan. Ever seen those in the west?

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#273

Post by yongjik »

devchix wrote: post #147

> South Korea’s rise to a middle power status comes without much historical baggage The kingdom of Joseon was annexed entirely by Japan in 1905. Modern Korea (nevermind the North/South prefix) would not exist had the US not enter WWII. The 35-years under Japan is a major flashpoint in Japan-Korea relation, it's a joke that the thing that unites North and South is their common hatred of Japan. I'm surprised there's no…

The thing is ... complicated.

America defeated Japan in WW2, leading to the liberation of Korea, but it was immediately followed by the US and the Soviet dividing the country in half. To make matters more complicated, the US backed a right-wing former independence fighter, who turned out to be a corrupt asshole who rolled in the same bed with national traitors (those who had worked for Japan under occupation). Because America now needed a strong military presence to fight the cold war, it also pushed Korea to be more friendly with Japan.

The end result is that, in Korea, the "right wing" is friendlier toward the US and Japan, while the "left wing" tends to be more nationalistic (i.e., wanting a unified Korea) and hostile toward Japan. (Of course, even this is a gross simplification ...)

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#274

Post by renewiltord »

dragonwriter wrote: post #214
spothedog1 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except the US has a large labor shortage that predates covid in construction, agriculture, domestic work, scientists, engineers and more. If automation comes then great but the basic principals of more people in an economy means more demand for goods and services still applies.

> Except the US has a large labor shortage No, it has less labor supplied at current prices than purchasers would prefer. Market clearing quantity at current prices being less than buyers would prefer is...the normal case of a market economy. It's only a shortage if buyers paying more wouldn't increase market clearing quantity, because of some constraint besides “you haven't offered enough money to convince more peop…

> It's only a shortage if buyers paying more wouldn't increase market clearing quantity, because of some constraint besides “you haven't offered enough money to convince more people to sell their labor”.

Yes, that constraint is immigration law.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#275

Post by delecti »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #238
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most labor simply isn't worth as much as it used to be. This is evident in stagnant wages You're assuming an efficient market, which we've long known is a flawed assumption.

Where is that assumption? I'm not seeing it in the claim.

Taking stagnant wages to imply that the labor is worth less is taking for granted that reduced prices means reduced value. It's probably more accurate (though still oversimplifying) to view it as a cartel suppressing wages.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#276

Post by closeparen »

3pt14159 wrote: post #65
nerdponx wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that dating "not requiring commitment" is the issue. It's difficult to commit to dating when you are time-poor and struggling to even get close to the financial trajectory that your parents were on. It's too easy to blame the kids or whatever, without considering that the kids had and have it harder in many ways than the old people did. Being a millennial in the '00s was pretty good, being a millennial a…

This is actually part of what I'm talking about. The sweet high-paying tech jobs went to a group of people that can comfortably afford to live without marrying off. They date around because they can. I know, because I got that sweet job in 2008 just at the start of the tech wave and I dated around quite a bit and the pressure to get married for financial reasons wasn't there and the social pressure to get married for…

There is a middle way here, which is to partner and commit early, but take some time to enjoy being young adults together before you become chained to a childcare routine. I have a sense that this leads to a more stable family in the long run, and it's what my own parents did.

It is pretty hard to find though. It seems people want either hot casual sex or a house in the suburbs within 6 months, not much in between.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#277

Post by info781 »

calmd wrote: post #7

SK is committing demographic suicide though, so whatever you think of its success, it has a pretty fatal disease. It has the lowest birthrate in the world. This is going to cause significant economic problems quite soon, or they will have to open up massive immigration which will completely change the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_birth_rate_in_South_Korea How does the developed world pull out of this ty…

We have lots of people on earth, they just need to be able to move to where they want to go. Low birthrate issue is nonsense. Let a couple million people from the Philippines in to Korea problem solved.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#278

Post by spothedog1 »

throw37388 wrote: post #267
spothedog1 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is inaccurate. More people, even low skilled ones are still a huge benefit to your society. They buy goods and services in the local economy increasing demand and work tax paying jobs. Immigrants children grow up to greatly out earn their parents pay way more in taxes than they their parents. The only immigrant group that could be considered a liability are older low skilled workers who have passed the age to ha…

There is limited supply of housing and low qualified jobs. Maybe read what Marx wrote about Irish immigrants to UK. And those already spoke local language and shared similar culture.

Limited supply of housing is an artificial local government constraint using tools like zoning and permitting to stop the construction of new housing keep prices high for incumbent owners. I agree it’s a huge problem but I would rather fight the constraint on supply than limit demand (partially immigrants) when they contribute so much else. We shouldn’t restrict economic growth and deny millions of people the chance at a better life to appease NIMBYs.

USA is amazing at assimilating immigrants. Mostly the places the furthest away from any immigrants that don’t actually interact with them have a problem. The melting pot isn’t a myth it’s real.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#279

Post by ses1984 »

spothedog1 wrote: post #190
csomar wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Immigration has become an issue lately because a human (or a bare-human) is worth much less. 1.000 years ago a bare illiterate human had some considerable value. He could work in the field or he could fight. More humans, more food and production. More humans, more manpower to fight your enemies. Now a bare semi-educated human is a liability. Which is why most countries are refusing their entrance. Times h…

This is inaccurate. More people, even low skilled ones are still a huge benefit to your society. They buy goods and services in the local economy increasing demand and work tax paying jobs. Immigrants children grow up to greatly out earn their parents pay way more in taxes than they their parents. The only immigrant group that could be considered a liability are older low skilled workers who have passed the age to ha…

You’re thinking in humanistic terms, not geopolitical terms.

Re: South Korea: The only middle power of its kind

#280

Post by matthewmorgan »

throw37388 wrote: post #267
spothedog1 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is inaccurate. More people, even low skilled ones are still a huge benefit to your society. They buy goods and services in the local economy increasing demand and work tax paying jobs. Immigrants children grow up to greatly out earn their parents pay way more in taxes than they their parents. The only immigrant group that could be considered a liability are older low skilled workers who have passed the age to ha…

There is limited supply of housing and low qualified jobs. Maybe read what Marx wrote about Irish immigrants to UK. And those already spoke local language and shared similar culture.

Or read what Malthus wrote before him.
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