Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

homelandsecuritynewswire.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

331–340 of 346 posts

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#331

Post by luffapi »

joelbluminator wrote: post #303
luffapi wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other option I see is to posit that in modern democracies the principle of self-determination is unnecessary. For geographically dispersed people? Yes, sovereignty is impossible and undesirable as you’d have to take it from the locals wherever you were getting the land from. For people living under an oppressive regime (or one they view that way), it’s a different story. They are the locals and thus should have…

Well Jews lived under oppressive regimes wouldn't you agree? It couldn't get much more oppressive. So their only choice was to try settle a place completely empty or where the locals would greet them. Zionism considered this btw, all plans failed. There weren't that many options.

Their choice was to fight the oppressive regimes where they lived, not become the oppressive regime for other people. Of course not all Jewish people are Zionist so there were other options aside from colonizing Palestine.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#332

Post by luffapi »

joelbluminator wrote: post #304
luffapi wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The estimate is around 700k people, of which a minority was Jewish: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palesti... Just because it wasn’t a dense urban area, it doesn’t mean it was “unoccupied”.

700k is very thinly populated.

Stealing sovereignty from one person is too much. Oppressing 700k is a crime against humanity.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#333

Post by nebula8804 »

joelbluminator wrote: post #325
nebula8804 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A while back, I'd agree with you but I'm starting to think this is a generational issue and that the younger generations are internalizing the truth about Israel. We could see a massive shift once they get control of the country en mass. I think it has already started and is moving faster than I would have predicted even a year ago. There is also the chance of the US losing a lot of its power through various means (i…

At least you're honest about wanting to dismantle Israel, could be nice if we got rid of the 1967 border/settlements bullshit. The "occupation" doesn't mean crap to the hard left, it's all occupation.

I just wish the US never got involved in this mess. It was a massive mistake that led to numerous downstream negative consequences for the US and its people.

The "hard left" sees Israel for what it always has been: A settler/colonial state. Israel will continue to push propaganda to bury this but the truth can never be erased.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#334

Post by nebula8804 »

joelbluminator wrote: post #326
nebula8804 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A while back, I'd agree with you but I'm starting to think this is a generational issue and that the younger generations are internalizing the truth about Israel. We could see a massive shift once they get control of the country en mass. I think it has already started and is moving faster than I would have predicted even a year ago. There is also the chance of the US losing a lot of its power through various means (i…

> Its going to take decades though. Who knows, maybe it never happens. If climate change brings about tens of millions of new refugees I don't think people will have that much time/energy to the so called Palestinian refugees anymore. They will have to get along like everyone else.

It will be interesting to see how climate change affects the area.

There is a possibility of a significant economic decline in the US caused by climate change such that the US will not be able to help Israel anymore just due to lack of resources.

Most of the countries in the region will be swallowed by the desert and that may include Israel. Even though Israel is at the forefront of mitigation technology, it does not seem like it is enough from what I have seen.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#335

Post by joelbluminator »

nebula8804 wrote: post #334
joelbluminator wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its going to take decades though. Who knows, maybe it never happens. If climate change brings about tens of millions of new refugees I don't think people will have that much time/energy to the so called Palestinian refugees anymore. They will have to get along like everyone else.

It will be interesting to see how climate change affects the area. There is a possibility of a significant economic decline in the US caused by climate change such that the US will not be able to help Israel anymore just due to lack of resources. Most of the countries in the region will be swallowed by the desert and that may include Israel. Even though Israel is at the forefront of mitigation technology, it does not…

Yeah, fun speculation....we will see what happens.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#336

Post by jessaustin »

joelbluminator wrote: post #315
jessaustin wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not obvious that Mexico has a better claim to California than e.g. the Ohlone or Tongva.

Why not split it between the 3 entities then? I'm sure they'll take it. If we're in the business of decolonizing let's get serious!

Taking this seriously would require differentiating between the various parties. Absolutely, indigenous Americans should be compensated for the recent theft of their lands. That compensation could take the form of return of land, or if the land's current use makes that impossible then we can print some money like we do for all our stupid wars.

Mexico, however, is also a colonial state. If we compensate them, soon someone will suggest that Spain should get a piece.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#337

Post by joelbluminator »

luffapi wrote: post #331
joelbluminator wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Jews lived under oppressive regimes wouldn't you agree? It couldn't get much more oppressive. So their only choice was to try settle a place completely empty or where the locals would greet them. Zionism considered this btw, all plans failed. There weren't that many options.

Their choice was to fight the oppressive regimes where they lived, not become the oppressive regime for other people. Of course not all Jewish people are Zionist so there were other options aside from colonizing Palestine.

Yes they should have fought the regimes lol, thank you for letting me know

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#338

Post by yyyk »

stevenjohns wrote: post #321
yyyk wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's ridiculously short sighted and bordering on racist. Now, here's a true, actual, case of using accusations of racism to avoid criticism. The post you responded to said nothing about guilt. You could (absurdly) blame the West entirely for the region's state - but most ME countries are still basketcases regardless of who's fault it is (and plenty of it obviously goes to the locals, e.g. Lebanon being a great ex…

Lebanon is quite possibly the worst example you could give, not only due to Israel playing a key role in the country's instability[0] but also to the fact that the areas that were shielded by Israel and the West were immediately experienced economic and political stability[1]. Israel in and of itself is a "basketcase" country that continues to operate the world's largest open-air prison, flaunting every international…

1. Israel is a regional actor.

2. Besides geography, some of us also know history and chronology. We recall the start of Lebanese Civil War preceded the Israeli invasion by almost five years. Lebanon collapsed long before Israel even thought about it.

In fact one of the main causes for the civil war - and the cause of the Israeli invasion - was that the PLO was able to run a state within a state and attack Israel while being based in Lebanon.

This phenomena - a third party militia embroiling the 'host' nation in its own wars, is exactly one of the outcomes of a failed state (ergo, a basketcase). For better or worse, Israel is a state. Lebanon isn't really a state, it's a collection of tribes with no local central management.

3. That said, I was thinking more of the recent collapse though. Nothing forced the Lebanese politicians to loot the state besides themselves, especially the wars 30 and 40 years ago. It's entirely locally made collapse.

The dumb algorithm you applied - find action of West/Israel years ago, ignore everything that preceded, succeeded it or caused it and ignore the responsibility of the locals (or Russia or anyone else), is one of the main causes of collapse. Its proponents ignore the welfare of the people they supposedly speak for in order to score an illusionary point against their political enemies.

Another outcome: surprisingly Israel has no reason to work overmuch to counter the insane campaign against it and the campaign's absurd claims. The campaign mainly serves its interests.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#339

Post by JohnFen »

joelbluminator wrote: post #323
JohnFen wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? It's not. It's equally despicable.

It's factually not equally despicable. I don't remember reading about some U.S/French company selling arms to Saudi Arabia as a major news story. Definitely not on Hacker News.

I can't speak to HN (although it seems to me that spy tools are more in line with HN areas of interest than arms sales), but if you haven't noticed that US arms sales to Saudi Arabia (and other nations) were major news stories, then I can't help you. Because they absolutely have been, and likely will continue to be.

Even if that weren't true, I don't see how the amount of press coverage something gets speaks to whether or not that thing is despicable.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#340

Post by jakelazaroff »

joelbluminator wrote: post #317
jakelazaroff wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People do talk about all of those things though? Israel and the US are both settler colonial states. Acknowledging that should be the start of a conversation about righting historical wrongs, not shorthand for a proscribed solution. As a side note, it seems like you're using "hard left" as a smear, but most of the people I follow who engage on this topic are diaspora Jews who very much do not want to become "hated re…

> but most of the people I follow who engage on this topic are diaspora Jews who very much do not want to become "hated refugees There are a lot of super progressive Jews out there that are vocal about Zionism needing to end. Sometimes it's ideological and sometimes it's just wanting to fit in within progressive circles and feeling good about oneself. I mean if Israel is a child killing apartheid state who in their r…

This doesn’t cohere with my experience at all. Many vocal anti-Zionists I know are also vocally Jewish. In fact, I don’t know a single person who is uncomfortable being Jewish in public, and I haven’t seen many progressives calling Bernie Sanders racist (especially with regard to antisemitism). And the right in the US has a far worse antisemitism problem than the left.
Post reply on HN