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Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

homelandsecuritynewswire.com

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Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#301

Post by joelbluminator »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #296
joelbluminator wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people shut down discussion without having to engage in the topics of settler colonialism or apartheid The apartheid bit can and should be engaged and eventually solved with a Palestinian state beside Israel. The settelr colonialist bit is mostly said to try and ruin the Zionist state by dismantling Zionism. No one calls the U.S a settler colonialist country. No one demands California to be returned to Mexico (it's…

> No one calls the U.S a settler colonialist country What? The US is the ur-example of settler colonialism. We are the end stage, the model for the ultimate fate of the original inhabitants under colonialism: decimated and pushed back into whatever worthless land none of the settlers wanted. > or that the Indians get the right to their lands back People do demand that, yes. Personally, I would love to see Native Amer…

Ok what I mean is no one is seriously asking to decolonise the U.S. Its easy to want a few Indians get a few more acres. It sounds nice and costs you nothing. But what about settling real claims? Like some tribe wants Manhattan back? Or returning California to Mexico? Thats what Israel is asked to do. To basically destroy itself to fix some past wrong that wasn't really its fault to begin with (we don't have to start this argument but comparing Zionism with what Americans did falls short).

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#302

Post by joelbluminator »

radycov wrote: post #291
ohashi wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could become wrong if they lose the support of the west. Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel. It's a multi dimensional issue and playing nice with their neighbors may be advantageous if nobody knows (publicly). But if they do and there are bigger more important relationships (namely US) start to be put at risk, it could be the wrong move.

No chance, AIPAC, BICOM and various lobby groups ensure politicians are in the pockets of the Israel lobby. This isn't to say other countries don't have corrupt lobbying practices. But the unilateral multibillion dollar IDF funding raies questions.

Could it be that some politicians actually agree Israel should exist?

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#303

Post by joelbluminator »

luffapi wrote: post #297
bzbarsky wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how open immigration solves the self-determination problem, unless the premise is that: 1) You allow open immigration. 2) You then allow a democratic vote, including by the new immigrants, to partition the existing state (the essence of self-determination). which comes back to pretty much my original premise: that the only way for a geographically dispersed population to have self-determination is to be a…

> The other option I see is to posit that in modern democracies the principle of self-determination is unnecessary. For geographically dispersed people? Yes, sovereignty is impossible and undesirable as you’d have to take it from the locals wherever you were getting the land from. For people living under an oppressive regime (or one they view that way), it’s a different story. They are the locals and thus should have…

Well Jews lived under oppressive regimes wouldn't you agree? It couldn't get much more oppressive. So their only choice was to try settle a place completely empty or where the locals would greet them. Zionism considered this btw, all plans failed. There weren't that many options.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#304

Post by joelbluminator »

luffapi wrote: post #287
joelbluminator wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define unoccupied. It was scarcely populated, definitely then and definitely by today's standards, and the Palestinian national movement was only in it's infancy. Most Palestinian wanted to be part of Syria back then afaik. It wasn't inconceivable that two people can create two states there then, and still isn't now. So no, I don't buy that everything was a colonialist plot. Some Zionists saw it as an expansionist en…

The estimate is around 700k people, of which a minority was Jewish: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palesti... Just because it wasn’t a dense urban area, it doesn’t mean it was “unoccupied”.

700k is very thinly populated.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#305

Post by cheif-lama »

joelbluminator wrote: post #103
nindalf wrote: post #59

I’m not surprised that all statements from the Israeli government are filled with nothing. “We need to understand what happened” means “sorry not sorry”. This spyware is invaluable for the Israeli government because they have something that repressive Arab regimes want. These regimes can’t be bought with money, because some of them like Saudi Arabia and UAE have plenty of money. Israel needs friends and this is a gre…

Well from an Israeli point of view how is this wrong then? Maintaining a good relationship with Saudi Arabia is a game changer for Israel.

Well since Israel is always touted as most moral army, and beacon of democracy (recently it is now being touted as Jewish democracy) in the middle east amidst Western sponsored dictators. It is wrong from moral point of view. If shooting children (about 7 in last 3 or 4 weeks, check out https://www.btselem.org/ not a Palestinian website) and uprooting trees does not bother them, I doubt this will bother Israeli leadership or their mouth pieces. Issue is that it is not sustainable.Yes, you can buy these dictators and appease them, but tell your masses they hate our freedoms than that issue is not something you should close your eyes too. It is an undeniable fact that, Israel and sponsorship of these dictators is the single reason 9/11 happened. I hope this explanation can register with you.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#306

Post by JohnFen »

joelbluminator wrote: post #130
_bfhp wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the current world any different from Skyrim or Game of Thrones? Do you think it should be? Real, not facetious questions I'd be curious to discuss.

Not sure what you're asking. I think from the dissident's point of view it's a tragedy. From Israel's point of view it's business and maintaining good relationships with people who can become an enemy in a heartbeat. How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? That's also not always about money but about diplomacy.

> How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions?

It's not. It's equally despicable.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#307

Post by JohnFen »

pulse7 wrote: post #33
KingOfCoders wrote: post #20

What I find funny is this: "Our clients only use the software against terrorists and criminals, so it can't be used the wrong way" "We made sure that it doesn't work against US phone numbers". That is straight out of "A Few Good Men": If Colonel Jessup ordered the soldier should not be touched, and soldiers follow orders, why was the victim scheduled for a plane ride off the base?

"Our clients only use the software against terrorists and criminals" => So this means that French PM Macron is a terrorist or criminal - for somebody who built this software...

Sure.

The really convenient thing about "terrorists and criminals" is that the definition of who counts as those is incredibly flexible.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#308

Post by cheif-lama »

joelbluminator wrote: post #130
_bfhp wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the current world any different from Skyrim or Game of Thrones? Do you think it should be? Real, not facetious questions I'd be curious to discuss.

Not sure what you're asking. I think from the dissident's point of view it's a tragedy. From Israel's point of view it's business and maintaining good relationships with people who can become an enemy in a heartbeat. How is this different from Western countries selling arms by the billions? That's also not always about money but about diplomacy.

How naive, Do you think these dictators represent their people? Even the simple semantics can't make that allowance. These dictators are the reason Israel is protected, and both Israel and America spend billions plus to ensure they remain in power. This elusive enmity, that can spring back in eyeblink, is created by Israel, it was not there for thousands of year. In fact, if it was not for Muslims there won't be Jews today. Zinosts know that and they know how to manuveur Americans, who else can explain this better than Netanyahu himself:

https://twitter.com/trtworld/status/1398806365078962178

Quickly read it because I have gut feeling my freedom of speech is going to get revoked soon.

https://twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1393786856916062209

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#309

Post by jessaustin »

joelbluminator wrote: post #301
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one calls the U.S a settler colonialist country What? The US is the ur-example of settler colonialism. We are the end stage, the model for the ultimate fate of the original inhabitants under colonialism: decimated and pushed back into whatever worthless land none of the settlers wanted. > or that the Indians get the right to their lands back People do demand that, yes. Personally, I would love to see Native Amer…

Ok what I mean is no one is seriously asking to decolonise the U.S. Its easy to want a few Indians get a few more acres. It sounds nice and costs you nothing. But what about settling real claims? Like some tribe wants Manhattan back? Or returning California to Mexico? Thats what Israel is asked to do. To basically destroy itself to fix some past wrong that wasn't really its fault to begin with (we don't have to start…

It's not obvious that Mexico has a better claim to California than e.g. the Ohlone or Tongva.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#310

Post by orteam »

In light of the Raven reveals from 2019 [0], I don't see what makes NSO stand apart and get so much bad rep (besides the obvious fact that any spyware is bad). In Raven, ex-NSA contractors not only supplied the spyware but actually helped operate it on-site, at least in the UAE. My guess would be that NSO et al compete with US-based players on price, not effectiveness. So the angle I find fascinating is the amount of pile-on on NSO/Israel this campaign effectively generates. Anti Israeli sentiment has become the watering hole where wokes and alts of all stripes can get their fuzzies and co-exist (at least for a while :/) [0] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-spyi....
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