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Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

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Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#311
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could become wrong if they lose the support of the west. Imagine the US and EU giving up on Israel. It's a multi dimensional issue and playing nice with their neighbors may be advantageous if nobody knows (publicly). But if they do and there are bigger more important relationships (namely US) start to be put at risk, it could be the wrong move.

No chance, AIPAC, BICOM and various lobby groups ensure politicians are in the pockets of the Israel lobby. This isn't to say other countries don't have corrupt lobbying practices. But the unilateral multibillion dollar IDF funding raies questions.

A while back, I'd agree with you but I'm starting to think this is a generational issue and that the younger generations are internalizing the truth about Israel. We could see a massive shift once they get control of the country en mass. I think it has already started and is moving faster than I would have predicted even a year ago.

There is also the chance of the US losing a lot of its power through various means (ie. Dollar losing reserve currency status, US military being tested by China and losing etc.). If this happens, they may be forced to cut Israel loose. Israel has no other solid allies and so they will flounder for a while but eventually sink because once the US is out others will be free to begin economic sanctions and the country cannot survive that indefinitely.

In both of these scenarios, the lobby groups become less effective and possibly get defeated. Long term we are moving towards a world where lobbies become less powerful. Its going to take decades though.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People do talk about all of those things though? Israel and the US are both settler colonial states. Acknowledging that should be the start of a conversation about righting historical wrongs, not shorthand for a proscribed solution. As a side note, it seems like you're using "hard left" as a smear, but most of the people I follow who engage on this topic are diaspora Jews who very much do not want to become "hated re…

I use the term hard left as opposed to center left. We can use progressive. Its nice and easy to acknowledge things when there are no claims. The Mexicans are not claiming California back and even if they were no one would take that seriously. The Palestinians ARE claiming the land back, and are being supported by growing numbers. So this whole discussion about history becomes very consequential to Israel.

Do we even disagree about the settler colonialism bit? It seems like your hesitance there has to do with a potential conclusion, rather than whether or not that accurately describes the situation.

FWIW, I’m speaking in good faith about that being the start of a conversation about reparations (although not one that I want to have here and now). I’m not trying to go “GOTCHA! now Israelis need to GTFO” as soon as we acknowledge that shared understanding.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

During the 1948 Palestine war, Jewish troops ethnically cleansed the territory that became the State of Israel of Arab Palestinians. The land and property owned by those Arab Palestinians was confiscated by the state and handed out to Jewish immigrants. Israel does not believe that any of the land or property it confiscated should be returned to its former Arab Palestinian owners. At the same time, property owned by…

> During the 1948 Palestine war, Jewish troops ethnically cleansed the territory that became the State of Israel of Arab Palestinians. The land and property owned by those Arab Palestinians was confiscated by the state and handed out to Jewish immigrants. And this is why there is so many Arabs living happily in Israel today. /s Quite on the contrary I've read that Israel asked Arabs to stay in Israel during the 1948…

After the war the international community pressured Israel into letting the Palestinian refugees return home. The famous UN Resolution 194 was an attempt to settle the Palestine question and to demand of Israel that it let the refugees repatriate. But the racist Israeli leaders didn't want non-Jews in their state. "Only Jews have a right of return to Israel", Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion declared.

To shield itself from criticism, Israel promulgated the idea that the Arabs left voluntarily. That they had been "called out" by their own leaders. Joseph Schechtman, working for the Israeli state, was the first to claim this in his book The Arab refugee problem from 1952. He referenced radio broadcasts and evacuation orders from Arab community leaders ostensibly calling for them leave.

Erskine Childers in his classic article The Other Exodus from 1963 went through transcripts of radio broadcasts in Palestine during 1948 and couldn't find a single instance of an order by Arab leaders calling for them to leave. Arab leaders that he interviewed vehemently denied calling for the Arabs to leave. On the contrary, he found transcripts of radio broadcasts calling for the Arabs to stay. Since then, many historians have investigated the issue and have concluded that the "called out"-theory is completely bunk.

Despite the overwhelming evidence showing that the Palestinians left for fear of getting caught in the hostilities, were "adviced" to leave by Jewish troops, or forced out at gunpoint, some Zionists still cling to the debunked "called out"-theory. That's the power of propaganda, I guess.

I find it callous and cynical to attempt to justify Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestine with Jewish emigration from Arab countries in the 1950s and 1960s. That the Arab countries persecuted their Jewish minorities cannot justify an ethnic cleansing committed decades prior. Furthermore, some Arab states have apologized for their persecution of Jews and allowed them to return and to claim property. No such apology is forthcoming from the Israeli state.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use the term hard left as opposed to center left. We can use progressive. Its nice and easy to acknowledge things when there are no claims. The Mexicans are not claiming California back and even if they were no one would take that seriously. The Palestinians ARE claiming the land back, and are being supported by growing numbers. So this whole discussion about history becomes very consequential to Israel.

Do we even disagree about the settler colonialism bit? It seems like your hesitance there has to do with a potential conclusion, rather than whether or not that accurately describes the situation. FWIW, I’m speaking in good faith about that being the start of a conversation about reparations (although not one that I want to have here and now). I’m not trying to go “GOTCHA! now Israelis need to GTFO” as soon as we ack…

I think we disagree, or at least I don't agree fully. Putting what the Americans or white Australians did with what happened in Israel and saying it's the same thing seems odd to me. It's not the same thing. There are similarities and vast differences. Also, Arabs themselves are settler colonialists by that definition. They started coming to the region during the Arab/Muslim conquests in the 7th century. No one spoke Arabic in Palestine before that.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok what I mean is no one is seriously asking to decolonise the U.S. Its easy to want a few Indians get a few more acres. It sounds nice and costs you nothing. But what about settling real claims? Like some tribe wants Manhattan back? Or returning California to Mexico? Thats what Israel is asked to do. To basically destroy itself to fix some past wrong that wasn't really its fault to begin with (we don't have to start…

It's not obvious that Mexico has a better claim to California than e.g. the Ohlone or Tongva.

Why not split it between the 3 entities then? I'm sure they'll take it. If we're in the business of decolonizing let's get serious!

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure, some people might be annoyed they were spied on I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population. Furthermore, Israel hasn't had the support it has today. Especially at the time multiple countries tried to attack it. At the time it b…

> I think it should be mentioned that other countries spy on citizens too. I fail to see what is the difference for Israel now. We have ample evidence from multiple whistleblowers that governments like to surveil their population. And all of them should be called out, every time. "But those guys get away with it" isn't a defense.

That is a valid argument against unethical behavior but again, this isn't valid for the reality of arms sales. It would be better if that weren't the case, but it isn't. And the place to start is always your own government because here you are responsible and have the ability to enact change. Your government will try to move you to point fingers at other country. Exactly like you do here.

What the Russians do isn't an argument...

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people shut down discussion without having to engage in the topics of settler colonialism or apartheid The apartheid bit can and should be engaged and eventually solved with a Palestinian state beside Israel. The settelr colonialist bit is mostly said to try and ruin the Zionist state by dismantling Zionism. No one calls the U.S a settler colonialist country. No one demands California to be returned to Mexico (it's…

People do talk about all of those things though? Israel and the US are both settler colonial states. Acknowledging that should be the start of a conversation about righting historical wrongs, not shorthand for a proscribed solution. As a side note, it seems like you're using "hard left" as a smear, but most of the people I follow who engage on this topic are diaspora Jews who very much do not want to become "hated re…

> but most of the people I follow who engage on this topic are diaspora Jews who very much do not want to become "hated refugees

There are a lot of super progressive Jews out there that are vocal about Zionism needing to end. Sometimes it's ideological and sometimes it's just wanting to fit in within progressive circles and feeling good about oneself. I mean if Israel is a child killing apartheid state who in their right mind would want to be associated with it? Many of them aren't really comfortable with the idea of being Jewish in general (definitely not in public), and they have a good reason since anti-semtiism is still alive even in the U.S, especially in progressive circles. Also, religion and progressiveness don't generally agree that well. They definitely won't be able to fit in progressive circles and say that Israel has a right to exist, it barely works now. Bernie Sanders is struggling with his Zionism, lots of progressives think he's pretty much a racist. It's a complicated topic, but we can make a whole discussion about Jewish life in the diaspora and the challenges it brings.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> During the 1948 Palestine war, Jewish troops ethnically cleansed the territory that became the State of Israel of Arab Palestinians. The land and property owned by those Arab Palestinians was confiscated by the state and handed out to Jewish immigrants. And this is why there is so many Arabs living happily in Israel today. /s Quite on the contrary I've read that Israel asked Arabs to stay in Israel during the 1948…

After the war the international community pressured Israel into letting the Palestinian refugees return home. The famous UN Resolution 194 was an attempt to settle the Palestine question and to demand of Israel that it let the refugees repatriate. But the racist Israeli leaders didn't want non-Jews in their state. "Only Jews have a right of return to Israel", Israeli Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion declared. To shiel…

> Erskine Childers in his classic article The Other Exodus from 1963 went through transcripts of radio broadcasts in Palestine during 1948 and couldn't find a single instance of an order by Arab leaders calling for them to leave.

This is interesting. I'll stop writing that. (Or until I can get proof of it.)

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#319

This story is kind of funny: "intelligence" is a game where everybody cheat and everybody say that he doesn't. That's the basic (and maybe only) rule of the game... So when a cheater is caught, the main consequence is that... he has to find another way to cheat!!! For a long time, Israel is known to be cheating with cyber... and I wouldn't be surprised that France is using NSO services too! Same goes for Palantir...…

> but won't change the world nor the game

I don't think that was ever the point. In a game of cat-and-mouse, you don't skip on a chance to spray the cat.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the same way they hunt Russian hackers on vacations in cool places :) src: https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+hacker+caught+on+vac... 1 >At noon on June 28, 2012, Vladimir Drinkman, targeted as one of America’s most wanted cybercriminals, and his wife hustled into a cab pulling away from their Amsterdam hotel. They had just been tipped off that the police were on to them, but an unmarked police car blocked their…

Well, but unlike russia, Israel is an ally of the US.

FBI arrests in Israel have happened in the past.
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