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Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

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Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's just PR bullshit like Amesys/Qosmos execs did 10 years ago pretending their surveillance software was only used to catch pedophiles and terrorists (despite human rights orgs being on their lists)... funny btw that 4 Amesys/Qosmos execs have just been indicted this month. However, as a french person i must agree Macron is a criminal and a terrorist. A criminal because he goes (as most presidents would) aga…

Wrong and exaggerated on so many levels. What you are saying is caricature of the left extremist way of thinking. No the yellow vest movement was nothing but peaceful, quite violent actually, throwing cobbles or molotov cocktails at police forces, using forklifts to force their way or destroy public properties, burning banks, setting cars on fire, etc. They were even allowed to demonstrate every week for at least 2 y…

Wow, so much misinformation in a single comment it's hrd to unpack.

> No the yellow vest movement was nothing but peaceful

Did i claim the movement was peaceful? It's a revolutionary movement, of course shit is gonna burn. Now three important questions:

1) Who determines the level of violence of protests, if not the government going against the will of the people and deploying robocops and military-grade equipment on the streets to destroy any opposition? May i remind you teargas is internationally recognized as a weapon and forbidden by the Geneva convention? Let's not even talk about their "non-lethal" grenades and bullets, who are very much lethal (see Vital Michalon, Rémi Fraisse...)

2) What is considered violent? Is it more violent to break a bank's window and set fire to the bourgeois restaurant where Sarkozy had dinner on his first night as president (Fouquet's), or to ensure that the 10 millions of french people living below the poverty line (not accounting for undocumented people) struggle every day for basic food and services, causing exhaustion and death, often leading to suicide or work-related deaths? Does taking part in breaking stuff (not beating people) justify to be mutilated for life in your view of Justice?

3) We may agree that throwing a molotov cocktail at a cop is violent, whether we agree or not if it's a legitimate action. In this specific case, a cop may preemptively attack as a case of self-defense. However, that's never what i've heard or witnessed. People throwing molotov cocktails at cops are a handful, out of hundreds of thousands protesting, and these are usually thrown as self-defense from the people AFTER cops have attacked them ruthlessly. In reality, most people getting hurt/mutilated by police are peaceful protesters, because they have less self-protection reflexes than people used to black block and popular self-defense tactics. In some cases, they're people who were not even involved with the demonstration, and were just passing by on the streets when the cops assaulted them. Do you think that's legitimate action by the police to just beat down random bystanders?

> Also they are really not representative of the French people but they wanted to impose their ideas, not democratic at all, much like what happened in the Capitol.

That's not true. It was (is?) a very popular movement whose primary demand is popular democracy through people's assemblies, which is the opposite of "not democratic at all". According to your understanding, what kind of ideas do gilets jaunes want to impose and to whom? What do you think of Macron's attempted recuperation via his official citizen congress on climate change, of which he discarded all proposals when they were not going his way? Which side is more democratic? A government elected by less than 50% of the population (i'd like to remind you that we abstentionists are the biggest political party of France), or a popular movement which polls indicate has way above 50% of popular support?

> They basically behave like traffic smugglers and encourage people to try the crossing to Sicily.

That's bullshit. They didn't take money from people, for starters. Then we may wonder how rescuing people at sea when they have great chances of drowning is encouraging anyone to try and cross the sea. If due to humanitarian there were 0 deaths from crossing the sea, that COULD be an argument. However, there's thousands of deaths every year so that hardly stands scrutiny. Moreover, we could argue facilitating people to cross in good conditions is actually a good thing: why do some people enjoy travel visas and first-class tickets while others get neither? How is that fair? Especially when the former are from the richest countries on earth, whose wealth is built on the colonial and/or neocolonial exploitation of the latter?

If you want to talk about scandals in the mediteranean see, you should take a look at Frontex (european coastal guard agency), and its budgets and actions. How can "cost guards" with now half a billion euros yearly budget and over 10,000 employees leave so many people to drown? You may understand more if you take a look at their scandals (see Wikipedia) including european law violation (attempting to create an armed militia despite european regulations not allowing it), international law violation ("pushbacks"), and corruption (undeclared meetings with undeclared lobbyists from the weapons/surveillance industry is illegal for european institutions). See also this CCC talk from a few years ago about Frontex's surveillance tech: https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10994-no_roborders_no_nation_or_...

> Steve was not killed by the police.

What's your source? There's very compelling testimonies and arguments in favor for that case, so much so that even the prosecutor had to indict some cops for "manslaughter", which is really unusual, as cops are rarely prosecuted in France when they kill someone. Despite the police initially claiming noone fell into the water during its muscled intervention, they later acknowledged at least 14 people had fallen into the river (not all during police intervention), of which 7 have been "fished" by the firefighters and 4 by a local safety association. One of those 4 people testified that there was a fifth person who actually drowned, which is why some people from the rescue teams testified they were already aware one person had potentially drowned.

That the police initially communicated that nobody fell into the river, despite everyone knowing otherwise, is a good sign that they knew what happened and were trying to cover up, as they often do. For example, that's also what happened when they killed Rémi Fraisse: First they claimed someone had died somewhere they were not at the time where no police intervention was going on, and they had nothing to do with it. Then they claimed they threw a grenade at him but death was caused by molotov cocktails of him (in his backpack) taking fire. Then the analysis proved that the only explosives/flammables found on his body and backpack were from the grenade thrown by the gendarmerie. And now they're in a limbo of conflicting testimonies were the only things sure is that safety training has been ignored (such grenades MUST be rolled on the floor, not thrown in the air), the police warnings ("sommations") were not done properly (no loudspeaker), and the officers who gave order to throw the grenades had no authority to do so (requires a certain grade in the military).

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#242
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you got a citation that Hamas is on a religious mission to "kill all non-muslims". From what I have read and understood, it's primary focus is to resist the Zionists which repeatedly encroach on Palestinian land. Imo, making a comparison to ISIS is a tad bit lazy given the historical buildup to the problems in Israel. Just because a bunch of guys have big beards and shout in Arabic doesn't really make them equiv…

The goal of Islam is 100% conversion of humanity, and death for those who resists. That's literally why it was invented 1500 years ag; World peace when everyone's a Muslim. The central idea behind the faith.

You can't do religious flamewar on HN and if you do it again we will ban you. No more of this, please.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#243
post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The goal of Islam is 100% conversion of humanity, and death for those who resists. That's literally why it was invented 1500 years ag; World peace when everyone's a Muslim. The central idea behind the faith.

As was the military goal of the Roman empire 1000 years before that. There's a reason pacificare is alternately translated as "to pacify" and "to subdue", the Romans didn't make that distinction either.

"Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead."

a.k.a. please don't feed the trolls

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#244
post #12

Do the timings of this increased scrutiny have anything to do with the current conflict with Palestine?

You started a vile flamewar with this comment. Obviously, that's mostly the responsibility of the commenters flaming each other and crossing into religious and other forms of nastiness, but still—dropping a lit match at a gas station is negligent if not trolling.

As for the commenters downthread: posting personal attacks, religious attacks, nationalistic attacks, and similar kinds of things is utterly against both the letter and the spirit of the rules here, and if you keep it up we will ban you. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and take the intended spirit of this site to heart. If you can't do that, please don't comment until you can.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#245
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They" being "Israeli propagandists" as referenced in the previous comment. What you're doing is exactly what we're talking about. Trying to shut down any criticism of the Israeli government as antisemitic bigotry. It's no different than the 50 Cent Army ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Army ) dismissing all criticism of the CCP as sinophobia.

Clever. By labeling anyone who alleges antisemitism as an "Israeli propagandist" you can shut down any discussion of antisemitism without having to engage with whether there may be any bigotry or prejudice in play But seriously, ask yourself if there is any way a Jew could tell you "Hey, what you're saying about Israel is kinda racist because XYZ" without you immediately dismissing them. (And maybe there is! I haven'…

The opposite is a much more common occurrence. By reflexively labeling any criticism of Israel as "antisemitic", people shut down discussion without having to engage in the topics of settler colonialism or apartheid.

Frankly, this is one of the more frustrating aspects of my experience as a diaspora Jew: having to constantly point out that Israel != Jews in response to people who want to exploit my religious identity for their own ends.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Balfour Declaration was a request from a banker so powerful that he could order the British government to create a new colony. It has nothing to do with anti-semitism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

> It has nothing to do with anti-semitism. Anti-semitism has nothing to do with the movement to create a homeland for the Jewish people (which then tried to garner the support of various governments, which is where the Balfour Declaration comes in)? It has everything to do with it. Were there various colonialism-related issues involved too, of course. But pretending like that's the entire story is quite disingenuous.

> create a homeland for the Jewish people

This is clearly colonialism by definition. It’s the entire story because there is no justification for oppressing and colonizing others, even if the people doing it also face discrimination. It’s not an excuse and shouldn’t be part of the conversation.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Balfour Declaration was a request from a banker so powerful that he could order the British government to create a new colony. It has nothing to do with anti-semitism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

Why is the Balfour Declaration a main point in your argument? It could have not happen and yet Jews would still have been desperate to find a state of their own. I am not sure how it relates to anything besides it being a piccant topic (a powerful banker!)

The Balfour Declaration is the foundation of Israel, of course it should be the main point of any discussion of the region.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#248
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it. Calling out chinese, russian and north korean hacking = fighting cyber terrorism. Calling out israeli hacking = antisemitism

you're missing the point, and putting words in my mouth. Israeli hacking criticism is not anti-semitism, and thats not what I meant. But the thousands of articles coming out every week criticizing Israel are largely motivated to destroy the countries image. The antisemitism is related and undeniable as a side to all of this.

Please stop adding to flamewars, and don't post like this to HN in the future, regardless of which side you're on or how right you are or feel you are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#249
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I went to a wedding of a my friend whose Grandpa is Jewish and at the wedding he was making a speech Sorry what the hell does this prove? Is this anecdote a theory that all Jews think that and somehow implement this thinking regarding Palestinians? ?

Let me break it down for you. Do you know what the concept of Gentile[0]? It refers to a pretty clear distinction between a jew and non-jew. Zionists have used this concept in the past to make a distinction between the "souls" of Jews and non-Jews. This has led to very discriminatory views towards minorities in Israel (just look at the polls/surveys for independent data). This has led to a two-tier system in the mind…

Please stop adding to flamewars, and don't post like this to HN in the future, regardless of which side you're on or how right you are or feel you are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#250
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Please point us to one time where Qatar did something last heinous as Saudi Their treatment of "guest workers" (de facto almost slaves) is significantly worse than Saudi killing a single person. Not only due to numbers affected (the Guardian counted 6,500 deaths). It's that, we expect repressive regimes to kill their opponents but when their acts are turned against truly helpless and unrelated people it's even worse…

Workers rights is a separate discussion and one in which the entire gulf region is shamefully criminal. I asked about the unparalleled brutality of a Crown Prince ordering the dismemberment of a journalist. Remember, this is a person who we host in the White House to shake hands with a smiling president — it matters that the whole world knows he ordered the killing and that the whole world continues to look the other…

>Workers rights is a separate discussion in which the entire gulf region is shamefully criminal.

It's not. It's a human rights issue, which has led to many deaths. Qatar has a far worse record than the rest of the Gulf.

>Remember, this is a person who we host in the White House to shake hands with a smiling president

So you don't want to do any diplomacy with unsavory regimes? With this standard, the US couldn't even talk to most of the ME, not to mention Russia and China. The world is unlikely to survive that.

>I asked about the unparalleled brutality of a Crown Prince ordering the dismemberment of a journalist.

Well, it's a separate issue that almost the entire ME is guilty of. Just look at the case of Zahra Kazemi[0]. And we have diplomacy with those people!

Sorry, just used your argument for a sec.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahra_Kazemi

"was an Iranian-Canadian freelance photographer, who according to the medical examiner was raped, tortured and killed by Iranian officials following her arrest in Iran."

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