Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal • Hacker News Board

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#211

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #124

dessant wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with the source, but can you give us a reason why one should be pro-Israel in this instance? I see nothing wrong with condemning the actions of the Israeli government, nor questioning why one of the prominent exports of the Israeli technology sector is surveillance. I keep being contacted several times a year by established Israeli companies to add spyware into my projects. A couple of weeks ago I wa…

As a EU citizen I don't criticise Israel for their weapon exports to much as that would be heavily hypocritical and it would also neglect the fact that EU officials actually want to implement said surveillance towards its citizens. That is not a fault of Israel, even if you want it to be.

[deleted]

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#212

Post by bjourne » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:02 PM UTC

seoaeu wrote: post #170

pulse7 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't Arabs also "semitic people" [1]? (Since Ishmael and Abraham are also descendants of Shem...). In this case "antisemitic" would also mean "against Arabs"... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_people

Sometimes words don't mean exactly what their etymology suggests. So I'm sorry but, objecting to using the world 'antisemitism' to refer to "anti-Jewish racism" comes across as trying to deny Jews the ability to describe their own oppression

Hanlon's razor applies: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Many or most people incorrectly assume that anti-Semitism has something to do with Semitic people because the words (but not their meanings) are similar.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#213

Post by boomskats » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:05 PM UTC

seoaeu wrote: post #180

DSingularity wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is it kind of works. Israeli propagandists describe anyone who opposes Israeli war crimes or anyone that critiques their continued colonization of Palestinians as terrorist sympathizers. Guess what seemingly everyone in media/politics avoid?

I'm sure the "terrorist sympathizers" label has absolutely nothing to do with the same people leveling those criticisms also being rather sympathetic towards the people committing terror attacks against Israelis...

So just to be clear, your response to the criticism that 'Israeli propagandists describe anyone who opposes Israeli war crimes or anyone that critiques their continued colonization of Palestinians as terrorist sympathizers'... is to label anyone criticising those Israeli propagandists a terrorist sympathizer?

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#214

Post by seoaeu » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #205

seoaeu wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously? "...the one (((they))) really like to use..."? Whenever the topic of Israel comes up, there's always the handful eager to accuse Jews about always crying wolf on antisemitism. Makes you wonder why they're so eager to preempt any honest discussion of antisemitism

"They" being "Israeli propagandists" as referenced in the previous comment. What you're doing is exactly what we're talking about. Trying to shut down any criticism of the Israeli government as antisemitic bigotry. It's no different than the 50 Cent Army ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Army ) dismissing all criticism of the CCP as sinophobia.

Clever. By labeling anyone who alleges antisemitism as an "Israeli propagandist" you can shut down any discussion of antisemitism without having to engage with whether there may be any bigotry or prejudice in play

But seriously, ask yourself if there is any way a Jew could tell you "Hey, what you're saying about Israel is kinda racist because XYZ" without you immediately dismissing them. (And maybe there is! I haven't gotten to know you in real life)

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#215

Post by skinkestek » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:09 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #207

bjourne wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm talking about almost every news outlet writing "Israel bombed Gaza" and only one being nuanced enough to mention "Israel bombed Gaza after n hundred rockets crossed the border during the last 24 hours." It goes both ways. I haven't seen the headline "Palestinian militias shell Israeli targets in response to Israel's attempts to ethnically cleanse illegally occupied Palestinian territory" either. > It took quite…

> Palestinian militias launched rockets at Israel in response to its attempts to ethnically cleanse illegally occupied Palestinian territory What ? That was what Western media wrote over and over again last few months.

Where were you were media wrote this?

Preferrably with links. I'm stubborn but prefer to become right over believing I was always right (but actually being wrong the whole time.)

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#216

Post by wizzwizz4 » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #197

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely it is a fault of Israel – and also the EU? Just because our lot do it too, that doesn't stop it being a problem.

I would feel pretty stupid to criticise Israel when it comes out that my own government ordered their software. They supposedly didn't buy it, but it was on the table for negotiation.

If you feel stupid saying something that indirectly criticises your government, democracy shall soon fall.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#217

Post by katbyte » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:22 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #84

noduerme wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, Israel was the first country to require a vaccine passport to go to the gym. However they simply made it so difficult to avoid vaccination that everyone did it. I'm pretty sure the Israeli government is not in the business of sterilizing Jews, so, I would say it's probably safe. Take the vaccine and get the passport and go out. It's a benefit of living in a first world country.

Everyone did it? According to the NYTimes 64% of Israeli’s have had one shot, while many countries like Canada are 72%. Israel seems behind?

canada is over 81% of the eligible

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#218

Post by wizzwizz4 » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #184

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What isn't connected to Jewish history? Let's see… Christianity's out, as is everything influenced by that. Same with Islam. Considering conquerers, trade, settlement – even just the impact of the United States – that leaves… not very much. The atrocities of WWII are more recent than the start of Jewish history, but it's called “World War II” for a reason. Think of the impact of the Geneva Conventions, for just one e…

A lot of things are not connected to Jewish history, especially not recent Jewish history. We are not that important.

They would've happened very differently if Judaism wasn't a thing, so I'd say they were connected. Judaism is at about as important as the Roman empire, or the people who introduced horses to the Americas – though perhaps less important than the people who crossed the Beringa land bridge.

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#219

Post by selectodude » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

DSingularity wrote: post #203

dariusj18 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's ridiculous to think the instability in the middle east is by US design, there are thousands of factions vying for power and the US has to make strategic calls day by day. Had the US made bad decisions, sure, did they know those decisions were bad at the time, probably not. If you have countries where no group (ethnic or political) has a majority, then no ruling government will be "popular".

Oh yeah? What is your explanation for Sykes-Picot?

It had nothing to do with the United States and the geopolical issues it created. In fact, the Americans sent a commission to Syria which deduced that what the French and Brits were doing was very stupid, at which point the Brits and French told the Americans to piss off.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King–Crane_Commission

Re: Israel tries to limit fallout from the Pegasus spyware scandal

#220

Post by will4274 » Mon, Aug 02, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #212

seoaeu wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes words don't mean exactly what their etymology suggests. So I'm sorry but, objecting to using the world 'antisemitism' to refer to "anti-Jewish racism" comes across as trying to deny Jews the ability to describe their own oppression

Hanlon's razor applies: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." Many or most people incorrectly assume that anti-Semitism has something to do with Semitic people because the words (but not their meanings) are similar.

Hard disagree. One of these (anti-Semitism) is far more common than the other (references to Arabs as "Semitic"). It's like saying that you've only heard of "negro" as a color. In a culture and a place (the United States) where that is absurd, assumptions of malintent and bad faith are a better heuristic.