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Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

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Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#341

I'm really upset with this decision. I have not gotten the vaccine as I prefer the known, extremely low risk of contacting COVID over the unknown longitudinal risk of the vaccine. My right to make these personal decisions regarding my bodily autonomy is extremely important to me. Under no circumstances will I yield that decision to my employer! Their demand only further reinforces my desire not to take the vaccine. W…

Imagine if we had the echochambers of today around when polio was still running rampant. We would never have gotten it as close to extinction as we have now.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#342

I'm really upset with this decision. I have not gotten the vaccine as I prefer the known, extremely low risk of contacting COVID over the unknown longitudinal risk of the vaccine. My right to make these personal decisions regarding my bodily autonomy is extremely important to me. Under no circumstances will I yield that decision to my employer! Their demand only further reinforces my desire not to take the vaccine. W…

> I prefer the known, extremely low risk of contacting COVID I'm a little confused by this. I live in King County, WA (and I work at Google). According to data reported by the county (as tabulated by the NY Times), one in 19 residents have contracted COVID[0]. That's >5% -- with a 1.8% case fatality rate in the US[1]. That's a bit below a one in 1000 chance of having died of COVID if you live in my county, including…

Yes, you missed stratifying by age and preexisting conditions and BMI. This data was missing in the beginning, but we have more than the overall mortality rate now. This is indeed relevant for young people, which tech largely consists of.

Here is one of many risk calculators, based on UK data: https://qcovid.org/

Unknown factors for the unvaccinated are the severity of new strains (against which the vaccines may not work well though, see the CureVac trials) and long covid (which does exist but is not well studied yet). Unknown factors for the vaccinated are the potential of the spike protein to create havoc in your vascular system (yet a real infection gives you an uncontrollable large dose of it), and the related anecdata about rare severe vascular side effects.

Such unknowns have to be respected when making personal, political and employer decisions. Overconfidence easily slips into failure. People have issues with the related cognitive dissonances and prefer to take and rage defending sides.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course I think about others. I would never go in with symptoms of any infectious disease. Were I asked to work in a building away from people that are high-risk or are regularly in contact with high-risk people I would easily oblige. There are multiple possible solutions that do not violate my bodily autonomy. I agree with your assessment that major adverse effects are unlikely, but ultimately unknowns are im…

Everything has unknown unknowns (u-u). You do not know the u-u risk of covid for precisely the same reasons you do not know the u-u risk of the vaccine: they are both on the same timeline . You also do not know the aggregate u-u risk to others: asymptomatic spread, modalities of spreading, etc. The aggregate u-u compound the individual u-u of covid. Eg., suppose long-covid occurs at a higher rate than supposed, has a…

> All you're saying by declining the vaccine is that you care more about the u-u risk to yourself.

which is fine, i think this is a valid position to take.

The invalid position is to prevent others from isolating you (who have this position) - for example, by mandating a vaccine passport for certain types of services or activities. You cannot take the position of wanting to protect yourself from u-u risk of vaccines, _and yet_ also continue consequence free life.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#344

vaccines / covid are the new politics/religion from speaking from identity[0]? [0] http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html

I can absolutely feel a kind of religious zeal and moral superiority from the pro-vax side. It will be hilariously stupid if long-term side effects turn out to be real.

“I am vaccinated. Look at this unvaccinated person. I am not like them. They are not like us. Lets go find more of them. Let’s throw stones at them. We’re not usually allowed to throw stones, but we can because they are bad. And I am now doing good, and it brings me satisfaction and purpose.”

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#345
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This goes back to the generally weak worker protections in the US. Background checks are a pretty hostile approach for most jobs, since after all it is assumed that the person which was convicted paid their debt to society. Sure, for certain kinds of positions like working as a lawyer or in a bank, or working with kids perhaps it makes sense, but for programmers working on consumer and B2B software it's a stretch. In…

To be fair: Background checks, in the US, aren't limited to criminal records. First and foremost, sometimes checks include arrests (without conviction, or a not guilty verdict) if the company chooses the wrong background check company. The government doesn't regulate them very well. But it can be things like a google search for you (Which means that a protest you went to could mean you "aren't a good fit for the comp…

These sort of unofficial background checks are unethical IMO, because there's often zero trace of them occurring. That person is essentially blacklisted without any hope of remedy. Unfortunately even where they're illegal they still happen sometimes and the candidates are none the wiser.

I agree with you on workplace safety, but in this case it seems like posturing, since the SARS-2 vaccines don't protect from sickness and transmission (any more). Several countries are experimenting with "vaccinated, cured or tested" to enable reasonably fair and safe access to social life. Since tests will no longer be free, this seems to be a very strong incentive to get vaccinated.

In countries like the UK, Germany, France, etc they're also pondering making it mandatory for health care professionals to get vaccinated. That probably makes sense, together with e.g. teachers, especially since kids can't get the vaccine. But the government must guarantee that any vaccine side-effects will be made up for. The nasty thing about AZ for example was that you would of course get treated if you got the brain thrombosis, but no compensation was awarded. I indirectly know of someone that had this critical side-effect and they survived but last time I heard they were still half paralysed.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#346
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of a right if it can't be exercised?

The company also has the right to fire you.

Philosophically or legally? I’m fully aware that US has weak worker laws, but in Europe you can’t fire people based on whim.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#347
post #52

One angle that isn't being discussed – having vaccinated employees greatly reduces healthcare costs for the company and its insurance provider. I'm sure they would love to enforce vaccinations, annual checkups, healthy diet, exercise, no smoking etc. among employees as a condition for providing insurance or employment if there wasn't a social pushback for doing so.

Exactly because companies are typically not allowed to force employees to undergo certain procedures and treatments - and for very good reasons - no exception should be done in this case either.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#348
No matter which end of the vaccine debate spectrum you fall on, this is free market at work. These are private corporations that can do business with customers and employees as they see fit within the laws. If people strongly disagree, they need to vote with their wallets and either change jobs or need to start a new company.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#349

I'm really upset with this decision. I have not gotten the vaccine as I prefer the known, extremely low risk of contacting COVID over the unknown longitudinal risk of the vaccine. My right to make these personal decisions regarding my bodily autonomy is extremely important to me. Under no circumstances will I yield that decision to my employer! Their demand only further reinforces my desire not to take the vaccine. W…

> I have not gotten the vaccine as I prefer the known, extremely low risk of contacting COVID

Your risk of getting Covid if not vaccinated (and leading a remotely normal lifestyle) is close to 100%. With an R0 of 6 you can't just free-ride of people who take the "unknown longitudinal risk", because even if a lot of people take the jab it's extremely unlikely we will achieve herd immunity any time soon -- even if the jabs (or prior infection) granted perfect and permanent immunity which they don't. I'm suprised you think otherwise, and would like to hear your reasoning, in quantitative terms if possible.

Re: Google and Facebook mandate vaccines for employees at U.S. offices

#350

I'm really upset with this decision. I have not gotten the vaccine as I prefer the known, extremely low risk of contacting COVID over the unknown longitudinal risk of the vaccine. My right to make these personal decisions regarding my bodily autonomy is extremely important to me. Under no circumstances will I yield that decision to my employer! Their demand only further reinforces my desire not to take the vaccine. W…

> I prefer the known, extremely low risk of contacting COVID I'm a little confused by this. I live in King County, WA (and I work at Google). According to data reported by the county (as tabulated by the NY Times), one in 19 residents have contracted COVID[0]. That's >5% -- with a 1.8% case fatality rate in the US[1]. That's a bit below a one in 1000 chance of having died of COVID if you live in my county, including…

Around 1 in 1000 may have died in King County, however the risk to an individual varies with age and comorbidities. If GP is young, isn't overweight, and doesn't work in close proximity to others, their risk of death is about an order of magnitude lower just by basic social distancing and exposure reduction. [0] shows COVID involved in about 3% of all deaths in the 18-29 group and about 13% in 85+.

Personally, I can't imagine the guilt if I knew I caused a close family member or friend to contract COVID, and have remained pretty cautious even after we have all been vaccinated.

[0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

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