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Google Offices to Mandate Vaccines

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Re: Google Offices to Mandate Vaccines

#381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same reason why folks who got chicken pox as kids don't need the vaccine; we already had it! Chicken pox is a different disease. It's not the same as COVID-19. There are a lot of questions around natural COVID-19 immunity that people who want to rely on it need to answer if they don't want to get vaccinated ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27987103 ). Then there's the question of why go through so much troubl…

The burden of proof is not on the people who have every reason to believe they have natural immunity. It's entirely on people who want to mandate a medical procedure.

> The burden of proof is not on the people who have every reason to believe they have natural immunity.

> It's entirely on people who want to mandate a medical procedure.

Nope, not really. While there is quite a high burden of proof on the people who want to mandate a medical procedure, the people who make their own medical claims (such as natural immunity provides equivalent or adequate protection) bear a significant burden of proof as well. Relieving them of that burden is completely impractical, since it would privilege all kinds of spurious claims.

The vaccines have proven to be safe and effective. If you want another preventative treatment to be considered equivalent, prove it.

Re: Google Offices to Mandate Vaccines

#382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "Who are the unvaccinated hurting, exactly?" > You might want to look at the actual statistics of the harm of COVID for under 12. If that frightens you, that's fine, but then I would encourage you to look at other daily behaviors and their risks. It doesn't matter what the statistics are, it's a risk they're exposed to because of the unvaccinated, anti-maskers, and people looking for every fucking excuse they can…

My only objection to your original post was your tone. Specifically dismissing my question as blase. Otherwise I thought your father's condition was the only good objection I've read so far. In fact, my wife being temporarily immunocompromised herself is why I signed up to a vaccine trial. But then you go off and swear at me on your subsequent post. As to your italized "because of the vaccinated" your kids are at ris…

Mandate all pool areas be closed to children under the age of 12. It would also save far more <12 year old lives than vaccinating everyone.

Re: Google Offices to Mandate Vaccines

#383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of proof is not on the people who have every reason to believe they have natural immunity. It's entirely on people who want to mandate a medical procedure.

> The burden of proof is not on the people who have every reason to believe they have natural immunity. > It's entirely on people who want to mandate a medical procedure. Nope, not really. While there is quite a high burden of proof on the people who want to mandate a medical procedure, the people who make their own medical claims (such as natural immunity provides equivalent or adequate protection) bear a significan…

Making a claim that matches centuries of experience carries virtually no burden of proof. It's not remotely a "spurious" claim.

Re: Google Offices to Mandate Vaccines

#384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This one is different. In my country in 2018, deaths caused by the flu was more than 50% of all registered Corona deaths. Just that season alone. Now some wants to mandate Corona vaccines, but then what about flu vaccines ?

Did your country restrict or mandate anything to prevent COVID-19 spreading?

I don't know about GP's country, but http://euromomo.eu/ has a lot of data whereby one can answer such questions for multiple countries in Europe.

Re: Google Offices to Mandate Vaccines

#385

It saddens me to see that all the top comments on these posts are just some empty populist yelling, variations on "good, after all, there's a war going on". And counterpoints end up being strawmen about vaccines not working anyway. Whatever your end conclusion about whether this is a good move, it's a complex issue that balances a lot of things and is worthy of serious discussion. Instead we get basically an online n…

Disclaimer: this is not legal or medical advice, but an encouragement to read the research for yourself and accumulate an understanding of the issues for your decision making. If you know any good studies or criticisms, please add them.

Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) and Biologics License Application (BLA) description: https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2021/06/15/whats-the....

There are already lawsuits challenging EUA vaccine mandates. They’d be moot, though, after FDA approval, since the Supreme Court has upheld states’ vaccination mandates (cf. Jacobson v. Massachusetts)

Some issues around BLA/FDA approval: First, a BLA has some implications. It would likely force the FDA to revoke EUAs to all other candidates (one of the conditions for an EUA is that no other viable approved treatments exist. Some of the controversy around ivermectin and off label use is related to this condition). This would impede development of other treatments, current and future.

Second, the history of SARS-cov vaccines is promising, but incomplete. Many previous trials showed good progress (high antibody titre levels, etc.), but tended to fare poorly on later virus challenges. eg https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Third, sometimes, side effects might not be sufficiently analyzed until well after authorization, eg “Dengvaxia”: a dengue fever (R0=65, CFR=20-30%) vaccine that was extensively used in the Philippines in 2017-8, but later showed evidence of increasing risk of disease severity on the uninfected and now carries that warning: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6214489/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dengue_vaccine

Hayes et al. outlines some of the issues particular to SARS. Again, VAED is a known pitfall: https://childrenshealthdefense.org/wp-content/uploads/Haynes...

Finally, Breslow (https://blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu/2021/02/18/employer-...) suggests mandates aren’t legal: previous CDC and FDA guidance have consistently advised against mandatory use of EUA vaccines, and courts would probably continue to defer to those agencies. In April 2020, Dr. Amanda Cohn, the executive secretary of the CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, reiterated that “under an EUA, vaccines are not allowed to be mandatory. Therefore, early in the vaccination phase individuals will have to be consented and cannot be mandated to be vaccinated” (page 56, https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/min-arc...) In addition, the EEOC June 28, 2021 update (https://www.eeoc.gov/wysk/what-you-should-know-about-covid-1...), Section K in particular, defers to CDC and FDA guidance on EUA vaccine use and practices.

Re: Google Offices to Mandate Vaccines

#386
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > I think the concern is delivery mechanisms that have never, or only rarely, been used before. > What is this concern based on? That it's new or rarely used? Why would you have prior concern one way or the other? I didn't originate this conversation so I can't speak for the original commenter, but it seems to me it's worth pausing for thought when a billion people are due to receive a medical intervention of a typ…

> I didn't originate this conversation so I can't speak for the original commenter, but it seems to me it's worth pausing for thought when a billion people are due to receive a medical intervention of a type that has never been used before. Sure... but what makes you think the scientific and medical community haven't done the equivalent of this? > I'm not opting to defend against that risk but nor do I think the calc…

> Then how would you describe the calculus?

Here's the calculus.

When a needle goes into your arm, you know, with a one hundred percent certainty, that you are subjecting yourself to a tiny risk that something will go wrong. You don't know how your body will respond to the vaccine, nor can you know how protective it is going to be in a couple of months. You know that the risk, to the best of our current knowledge (which tends to change bewilderingly fast), is tiny. Yet, there is no denying that it exists. And you know, know with an absolute certainty, that your body is getting exposed to the vaccine. How much this thought scares you, if at all, is a part of the instrument known as informed consent.

What you also know is that if your body gets exposed to the actual virus, there is a much greater chance that something will go very wrong. What you cannot know is whether you will have that encounter with the virus. You also do not know whether you have already been exposed to it and have had it asymptomatically (in theory, it is technically possible to test your immune system, but in practice, no-one is going to do it outside of a clinical trial).

> I'm not sure others should be coerced into having to share space with someone who is willingly unvaccinated from a contagious disease

Pre-2019, we did not mandate that people around us get vaccinated against flu, although we know that flu can result in a lethal pneumonia. Nor did we require people around us to be vaccinated against chickenpox, meningococcus, tuberculosis, etc. Each of those infections can be lethal, so why should we be coerced into sharing space with people who can be contagious?

Thing is, we were not concerned about it, just as you are not concerned about the possible side effects of a vaccine.

The narrative on covid vaccines has been changing over the course of the last several months, which may have given rise to resentment that has nothing to do with politics. The narrative used to be that maybe some happy day we will get the vaccines that will protect our most vulnerable, and then it will be safe to lift the lockdown. Then it celebrated that the vaccines became available to the general public. Good, happy news. Then the narrative shifted to emphasise that vaccines are not perfectly protective, yet still protect people from severe and long covid. That would have been a great place for it to stop, but it keeps shifting further.

Now, if a vaccine protects the vaccinated person against catching the virus (with, say, 60% probability) and against a severe covid (with an over 95% probability), then why do the vaccinated make demands of the unvaccinated? The vaccinated got their extra insurance; why are they still freaking out?

> but now I'm supposed to side with the anti-vax people because why exactly?

No-one asks you to side with the anti-vax people; the only request they can make is to peacefully co-exist.

Re: Google Offices to Mandate Vaccines

#387

I don't mean this polemically, or rhetorically. I'm honestly asking because I've given this some thought, and it's not entirely obvious to me. "Who are the unvaccinated hurting, exactly?" It appears to me that a pandemic of the unvaccinated harms the unvaccinated. "Those who cant get the vaccines" Now, some people will point out that some can't get the vaccines. Except that ppl with HIV, GBS, autoimmune etc are all e…

> "Who are the unvaccinated hurting, exactly?" My kids, who are too young to be vaccinated. I don't appreciate you being blase about their health. My father, who is quite possibly immunocompromised, and may not have acquired a strong immunity from his vaccine.

I don't mean to sound callous here, but I am completely unmoved by the idea that small children are somehow being put at risk. Children under 12 have a 99.995% chance of surviving covid, and the severity of symptoms they experience is similarly miniscule.

Re: Google Offices to Mandate Vaccines

#388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you heard it in a podcast, doesn't make it true. Disclaimer: I'm not saying vaccines are bad or not to take them, I'm saying it's wrong to assume there are no risks. > there has never in the history of vaccines been side effects that wouldn't be detectable at this stage In Europe several years after the H1N1 Pandemic, it was found that people who had received the vaccine for it were contracting narcoleps…

> Just because you heard it in a podcast, doesn't make it true. Sure - that's true of any source though, including those links you just posted. I included the podcast link because it was informative and the experts are trustworthy, whether you agree with that is up to you. You're completely right about there being risk albeit small - but it's important to weigh up the risk on both sides which is why I think FDA emerg…

The expert. Sam Harris is not an expert on the topic as he mentions on that podcast

Re: Google Offices to Mandate Vaccines

#389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not. This argument is not reasonable and looks suspiciously like working backwards from a desired outcome to something that sounds like a scientific justification. Firstly, the vaccines seem "effective" against variants, using the current definition of effectiveness of just reducing symptoms. Secondly, no vaccine in history has come with a disclaimer that it doesn't work unless 100% of the population is vaccinate…

> Firstly, the vaccines seem "effective" against variants, using the current definition of effectiveness of just reducing symptoms. Effectiveness against current variants doesn't guarantee effectiveness against future variants. "Just" reducing symptoms keeps people out of hospitals and graves. > Secondly, no vaccine in history has come with a disclaimer that it doesn't work unless 100% of the population is vaccinated…

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2

Every link I see on page 1 of results quotes 60-70% as the original herd immunity figure, which is what I recall hearing consistently back before the facts got upgraded.

Re: Google Offices to Mandate Vaccines

#390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this argument. This isn't the first time vaccines have been required. For instance, every state has required vaccines for school attendance--from kindergarten through college. Here's the list for Texas: https://dshs.texas.gov/immunize/school/school-requirements.a... Are you opposed to those mandates as well, or is this one different?

This one is different. In my country in 2018, deaths caused by the flu was more than 50% of all registered Corona deaths. Just that season alone. Now some wants to mandate Corona vaccines, but then what about flu vaccines ?

Interesting. Which country?
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