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Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

arstechnica.com

151–160 of 315 posts

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#151
CivBase had a good comment below about why this article may not be properly balanced, and I wanted to add this:

I see two things that can stall EV growth:

(1) Grid capacity. The US has been taking down nuclear power plants and replacing them with renewables has caused problems in both availability, cost and carbon impact. Ideally we would be able to build clean nuclear power as our grid demands growth from EVs, but it's questionable whether we can. Playing this forward, if the nation starts to have brown-outs or the cost of electricity goes up for this reason, people will not buy EVs obviously.

(2) There's a risk factor that we need to think about as a country. We rely on our vehicles for a lot of really important things - eg emergency services, commuting, business, etc. We have developed fairly robust gasoline supply infrastructure, and it's pretty good to know that even if my house/town loses electricity, I can still get fuel for my car, get around, travel elsewhere, etc. If we get into a place where our transportation is tightly dependent on our power grid, just as our grid is aging/overloading/etc, that could be a risk on the personal and national level.

These are solvable problems but we need to be solving them. Otherwise, EVs will plateau as more people start to recognize these factors.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#152
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is unlikely. Toyota, anyways, has really excelled in other ways, for example, using supply chains correctly and not taking a huge hit during the semiconductor shortage. The car market is also relatively slow to shift, I do think that there's plenty of time for Toyota to pivot.

My local Toyota dealer has about 25 new cars on their lot instead of 150+, that sounds like a pretty big hit.

Is it that they're suffering a car shortage, or everyone else is, and they're getting cleaned out because that's where people can find cars?

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should note, that I don't think massive political shifts should be tested in production. So whether communism is a good idea or not remains to be seen. We need to run a solid pilot, get the as many kinks out as possible, and then assess. Similar with taxing damages to Earth.

> So whether communism is a good idea or not remains to be seen. You are being too charitable. There is no shortage of data on communism after the last century. The results are so unequivocally bad across the board, you have to be ignorant of history or just ignorant in general to still think it's a good idea. As soon as someone tells me communism is a good thing, I realize I'm taking to someone who is not very intel…

Nazi Germany and Rwanda weren't communist. What are you saying? It would help to have a grounding on what communism is before repeating tired talking points.

>with not a single example in favor.

Soviet Russia went from a couple of potato farmers to a global super power in the span of 30 years under communism before transitioning to totalitarian dictatorship. Likewise there was nothing inherent to communism and more the lack of a strong republic.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This year they introduced the RAV4 prime, with 48 miles electric. The Prius prime is still in it's initial design iteration. Major updates occur typically every 7 years for auto manufacturers, so one would expect a new, improved range Prius prime somewhere in the 2023 range.

But can that 48 miles be exclusively electric or does it fall back to turning on the ICE every time you punch the accelerator? This is my grief of every PHEV I've tried other than the Volt; they cannot be driven as a true EV even when the battery is full because they use the ICE for performance boost, etc. The Volt runs better without the ICE.

I have the Prius prime, it gets a little over 25 mi EV-only and the only time it needs to burn gasoline is if you turn on the windshield defroster because the heat pump can only do so much I guess.

But the performance feels much sportier in EV mode and it has no trouble pulling up to 80mph without any ICE

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#155
post #21

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electri…

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

> Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

The Prime has a 25 mile battery range, which is well over the average driven commute distance in the US (its about the average daily driven distance for drivers.)

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should note, that I don't think massive political shifts should be tested in production. So whether communism is a good idea or not remains to be seen. We need to run a solid pilot, get the as many kinks out as possible, and then assess. Similar with taxing damages to Earth.

> So whether communism is a good idea or not remains to be seen. You are being too charitable. There is no shortage of data on communism after the last century. The results are so unequivocally bad across the board, you have to be ignorant of history or just ignorant in general to still think it's a good idea. As soon as someone tells me communism is a good thing, I realize I'm taking to someone who is not very intel…

I down-voted your comment because of your superiority complex, the terms like communism are too generic and the reality is that most communist countries were "kicked" in the balls by the capitalist.

I seen a comment by a "intelligent dude" like you, in his intelligence he compared North and South Korea, ignored that sanctions for the North and the tons of money US dropped on south and he got the conclusion he wanted.

The truth is that there is not enough good data, I would like to see some examples of countries that were not under sanctions or under a cold war or had some insane dictator leading them.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#157
EVs are dumber than liquid or gaseous fuels outside of niche uses. We had EVs 120 years ago too. The fundamental problem has not changed. Batteries and motors are less efficient at converting chemical energy into motion than heat engines, especially when energy density per weight and space are considered.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#158
post #21

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electri…

There's a long pattern of behavior with Toyota lobbying and arguing against battery EVs and basically spreading FUD about the whole concept. Their marketing for "self charging hybrids" is something they were peddling recently. Sounds awesome until you realize that they did not invent a perpetuum mobile and that instead this means "we burn petrol/diesel to run the engine to charge the battery". That's right, Toyota still makes hybrids that you can't plugin. The 20 year old Prius is a nice example of this "future". Every single mile these things drive are powered by a combustion engine. They have some proper plugin hybrids as well obviously but the marketing here is just awesomely cynical and obviously aimed at drivers who are a bit on the fence about wanting to buy a BEV.

They have a single compliance BEV that they are shipping in China only. It's a hard requirement to be active in that market. They make them in comparatively low volume of just slightly over 10K cars, which is of course next to nothing in the Chinese market. Also, that's only slightly less than the total number of hydrogen cars they have ever produced. Which of course they still insist is the future. Except they don't seem to be in any particular hurry building that future. A cynical person might say that they actually don't believe in that enough to put their money where their mouth is. Though they certainly seem to waste no opportunity to invest in marketing to convince people otherwise.

They are not actually arguing against BEVs because they believe BEVs are impossible. Obviously they are and essentially all their competitors are proving that by shipping electric buses, trucks, vans, cars, sports cars, etc. in increasingly large volumes. Toyota is merely trying to stem the loss of market share for ICE and hybrid vehicles here while they come up with an alternative. They do that by bad mouthing the whole concept of BEVs, by using misleading marketing like self charging hybrids, arguing that instead we should look at hydrogen, and generally just lobbying and arguing that BEVs are a bad thing.

However, at this point it looks more like they are dragging their feet simply because they are late with getting battery supply secured. They couldn't ship anything worth shipping in volumes that matter even if they wanted to and had the factories, designs, etc. ready to go. You need batteries for that and battery producers are fully booked building batteries for their competitors at this point.

To fix that they might prefer addressing this with their own solid state batteries. Which is something they've been investing in quite a lot. The only problem: they're not ready yet. However, they are apparently quite close to announcing a proper EV this year which might actually be using this. It will be interesting to see how quick they can go from a concept car to volume production. It will take a lot of investment and time probably.

So, one cynical interpretation is that they are just trying to buy some time until they are actually ready to start competing on their own terms. Which clearly they just aren't right now. They have no hydrogen car worth talking about (beyond the few concept cars they shipped). No infrastructure to fuel it. And the one EV they ship in China is clearly nothing more than a compliance car. So self charging hybrids it is for now. If they deliver a BEV with solid state batteries and awesome range (both of which might happen soon), my guess is hydrogen stops being the future at Toyota and self charging hybrids will be phased out as well. But even then, it might be years before they catch up.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 major problems none of the EV evangelists are addressing about with EVs are 1. What happens to all the giant lithium batteries on these vehicles after they reach end of life? 2. How will people be able to evacuate a city or state in an emergency situation when charging/electric supply is not present (which is always likely to happen)? 3. Coal burning infrastructure is still inextricably involved in generating the p…

> 2. How will people be able to evacuate a city or state in an emergency situation when charging/electric supply is not present (which is always likely to happen)? I never understood this scenario. Any situation where there is no electricity supply also means you wouldn't be able to pump gas. You do realize gas stations run on electricity right?

> Any situation where there is no electricity supply also means you wouldn't be able to pump gas. You do realize gas stations run on electricity right?

If you are concerned about emergency readiness, keeping a reserve fuel level in a typical gas (incl. hybrid) cars tank that provides more range than even the overly generous EPA-listed range of any pure electric short of a Tesla Model S Long Range Plus is eminently practical. So, if there is a recharging/fueling outage and need to evacuate, gas wins.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#160
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's been quite a few studies questioning the current focus on EVs with ranges of 400km and more. Largely because they are so heavy and are therefore not very energy efficient. The argument is that most peoples daily commute is less than 50km (in Europe), but they still by an overly heavy EV for the 5-10 times a year they go on longer trips. Instead a plugin hybrid could be much more efficient, because you can use…

But... are we pretending here that the ICE and gas & all the plumbing etc don't weigh anything? It's not like PHEV have zero additional dead weight. A quick search says "Car engines can weigh up to 1,000 pounds" and "Tesla S has a massive battery weighing 1,200 lbs" - so, are your really saving that much weight with PHEVs?

You can size the PHEV range extender engine to be much closer to the steady state power requirement, and tune it towards such as well. The BMW i3 uses a literal scooter engine for the range extension.
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