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Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

arstechnica.com

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Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#141

Post by jrsj »

trixie_ wrote: post #70
WhompingWindows wrote: post #44

The Japanese car companies have done pretty poorly in the 2010's in supporting the energy transition. Toyota has been extremely slow to adapt after the Prius, which makes sense because of their ridiculously large volume of sales of basic, gas-efficient passenger vehicles. I give Toyota big props for the Prius, which was the original Green Vehicle 15-20 years ago, and still is a HUGE player in the efficiency space. II…

They've got some weird obsession with hydrogen.. even recently I've seen a lot of online advertising for their hydrogen vehicle the Mirai which is wildly impractical in the US and probably anywhere else.

It’s partly bc it would be much easier for Japan to become fully independent w/ hydrogen whereas with batteries they would be reliant on other countries to produce them. So the Japanese government prefers hydrogen.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#142

Post by cmrdporcupine »

Causality1 wrote: post #87
bildung wrote: post #21

The FUD accusations seem a bit hasty here. The linked Senate hearing doesn't seem to contain negative things about BEVs (it only criticizes the "narrow focus" on them), but instead opts for including hybrid and hydrogen, with the argument being that "recent data shows that plug-in hybrids can achieve nearly the same or better GHG reductions than BEVs depending on your daily driving patterns, the carbon in the electri…

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

Exactly. GM showed with a Volt that a PHEV could be effectively a BEV 90% of the time and perform excellently even when falling back into ICE mode, but the Prime came out after the Volt and its drivetrain is inferior in every way to it. I understand the Prime is roomier and so on, but in terms of drivetrain it's woefully inferior.

As a Volt and Mitsu Outlander PHEV owner I obviously have nothing against the PHEV concept. But just comparing the two I can say that the Volt is more of a BEV with high quality range extension, while our Outlander is just a soft hybrid that can only sometimes use the battery exclusively. Pretty much all the PHEVs (including the Prime) are like that, and they gave the whole concept of PHEV a bad name.

EDIT: the Outlander has other attributes that make it innovative and good for us, though, such as its AWD system which uses dual electric motors, negating the need for a longitudinal shaft and differential etc.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#143

Post by stevev »

cycomanic wrote: post #106
stevev wrote: post #49

In addition to not betting on evs, Toyota along with many other car makers fail to understand the human desire for safety and convenience in their vehicles through the use of current camera technologies and computer applications. A typical Tesla vehicle has 8 cameras thus providing a 360 degree vision to help assist the car/driver in a few applications. Security, safety and convenience. A close second in terms of saf…

Apart from the fact that all car makers had drive assist systems for years and this is by no means a Tesla invention, if safety measures really are the main factor for people to choosing a car, we should be seeing Volvos almost exclusively. But your comment which asserts that only Tesla does proper drive assist says everything. Somehow Tesla managed to convince everyone that they are the only innovators and everyone…

Interesting. What other car makers has self driving capabilities, runs on ev exceeding 250 mi on range, and has cameras around the car? Last I checked Volvos doesn’t even come close.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#144

Post by Retric »

winternett wrote: post #117
Causality1 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

3 major problems none of the EV evangelists are addressing about with EVs are 1. What happens to all the giant lithium batteries on these vehicles after they reach end of life? 2. How will people be able to evacuate a city or state in an emergency situation when charging/electric supply is not present (which is always likely to happen)? 3. Coal burning infrastructure is still inextricably involved in generating the p…

3) 36% of global grid power comes from coal down from 41% in 2013. It’s expected to hit 22% by 2040.

Secondly coal isn’t nearly as bad as you might thing relative to gasoline. Simply producing gasoline releases significant CO2. Refineries alone release approximately 2.5 lb of CO2 for each gallon of gas, add in exploration, extraction, and transportation means gasoline is doing a lot of damage before reaching your car. Next gasoline > car engines > transmissions is vastly less efficient than EV’s coal > power plants > electric grid > batteries > EV transmission.

Net result while some of the energy comes from hydrogen in gasoline it’s still actually worse for the environment than coal, much worse than natural gas, and vastly worse than everything else.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#145

Post by cmrdporcupine »

anonuser123456 wrote: post #116
Causality1 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

This year they introduced the RAV4 prime, with 48 miles electric. The Prius prime is still in it's initial design iteration. Major updates occur typically every 7 years for auto manufacturers, so one would expect a new, improved range Prius prime somewhere in the 2023 range.

But can that 48 miles be exclusively electric or does it fall back to turning on the ICE every time you punch the accelerator? This is my grief of every PHEV I've tried other than the Volt; they cannot be driven as a true EV even when the battery is full because they use the ICE for performance boost, etc. The Volt runs better without the ICE.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#146

Post by olivermarks »

'According to the US Department of Energy, less than 5 per cent of lithium-ion batteries — demand for which is set to boom as carmakers such as Mercedes lay out goals to go “all-electric” — are currently recycled.'

https://www.ft.com/content/771498b8-9457-462f-aee0-e32db14ee...

Unless battery reuse is made viable there is no path forward for any future mass market in EV's. https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/The-World-Will-Ru...

Given that gasoline continues to easily provide the most bang for the buck/weight/volume IMO hybrids are the logical way forward until grids are recreated to cater to Small Nuclear Reactors and rewired to handle volume electrical delivery.

https://youtu.be/Hatav_Rdnno

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#147

Post by eyesee »

b112 wrote: post #108
WhompingWindows wrote: post #44

The Japanese car companies have done pretty poorly in the 2010's in supporting the energy transition. Toyota has been extremely slow to adapt after the Prius, which makes sense because of their ridiculously large volume of sales of basic, gas-efficient passenger vehicles. I give Toyota big props for the Prius, which was the original Green Vehicle 15-20 years ago, and still is a HUGE player in the efficiency space. II…

Toyota, Hyundai and Honda have all bet on H2. That's just as green, and electric as a Tesla. The tech works, refuels 10x faster than any battery based car, but so far no adoption outside of europe and asian countries. That's a phenomenal achievement. They chose wrong maybe, but they chose, and chose a path they though most viable. To claim they aren't in the game is beyond unfair.

H2 does not, and cannot offer the end-to-end efficiency of battery electric vehicles. The distribution infrastructure for H2 is inherently less efficient than electricity distribution alone, making BEVs 3x more efficient:

https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/04/hybri...

The primary advantage is faster refueling. The price is no in-home refueling -- a big win for BEVs, as most trips will not require refueling on the road. There are also real safety concerns about storing and transporting H2 at very high pressure.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#148

Post by simonbarker87 »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #44

The Japanese car companies have done pretty poorly in the 2010's in supporting the energy transition. Toyota has been extremely slow to adapt after the Prius, which makes sense because of their ridiculously large volume of sales of basic, gas-efficient passenger vehicles. I give Toyota big props for the Prius, which was the original Green Vehicle 15-20 years ago, and still is a HUGE player in the efficiency space. II…

I know Americans like to hate Nissan but outside the US the Leaf was a pretty reasonable first stab at an electric car, before Tesla and is into its second rev now. It’s by no means the best one but given they were early to the market it’s a little unfair to blame all Japanese car makers.

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#149

Post by nemothekid »

winternett wrote: post #117
Causality1 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice if Toyota actually had any interest in plug in hybrids. Their only one, the Prius Prime, is more expensive than its competitors and offers less than half their range. What's the point of getting a PHEV if I still spend half my commute running on gasoline?

3 major problems none of the EV evangelists are addressing about with EVs are 1. What happens to all the giant lithium batteries on these vehicles after they reach end of life? 2. How will people be able to evacuate a city or state in an emergency situation when charging/electric supply is not present (which is always likely to happen)? 3. Coal burning infrastructure is still inextricably involved in generating the p…

>2. How will people be able to evacuate a city or state in an emergency situation when charging/electric supply is not present (which is always likely to happen)?

I never understood this scenario. Any situation where there is no electricity supply also means you wouldn't be able to pump gas. You do realize gas stations run on electricity right?

Re: Toyota has stepped up lobbying to preserve its investments in hybrids, hydrogen

#150

Post by chipsa »

mobiuscog wrote: post #109

There are still huge numbers of car owners who do not have off-site parking to charge EVs. Unless EV public charging is able to 'refuel' completely in a couple of minutes, going 100% electric is just not feasible. There is no way most governments will be able to provide suitable infrastructure in the near future.

It doesn't need to be in a couple minutes if the chargers are where people tend to stay for a while anyways. Stick a fast charger at McDonald's and Chipotle and Target and Safeway, then people will be able to charge while doing the things they already would be. It doesn't even have to be especially fast. It just needs to give a reasonable amount of charge for the time that people would be at the location. If I'm going to be spending an hour at a restaurant, I don't need to have it be done charging in 20 minutes.
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