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Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

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Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#111

Post by imtringued »

vagrantJin wrote: post #53
hereforphone wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spend a couple years in Italy. Spend a couple years in Syria. Come back and tell me which you prefer.

Why, so I can visit the Lamborghini factory and pizza restaurant? If you think my statement sounds like a shallow cliche then I would remind you that a group of people connected loosely by the idea of a state have cultural norms and traditions that make their little corner of the world unique...and Id say this surpasses the idea of materialism/unbounded consumption that undertones every conversation about "Europe Vs…

The difference is that cultural differences can be expressed in Europe. You can't do that in those contested regions because everyone wants to violently force their own cultural difference upon the rest of the population.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#112

Post by alphakappa »

nIHOPp6MQw0f5ut wrote: post #34
soperj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take an objective look at the USSR from 1917 to 1990, while there was a lot of bad things, they also completely industrialized the country, literacy rates went from 28% to 99.7% (triple it in the first 15 years, by trying to teach everyone to read their native language first instead of Russian first). They were the first country to put a man in space. I'm not sure that it was all disastrous.

The west industrialized without gulags.

The western industrialization didn’t create gulags in the western world, but it was largely paid for by untold cruelty in Asia and Africa, and slavery in the US. Concentration camps existed far before the Nazis, and many millions died through genocide and famine created by the European powers.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#113

Post by imtringued »

CameronNemo wrote: post #93
vimy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The West created the modern world and lifted billions out of poverty.

Easy to lift people out of poverty when you literally invent the concept.

People are naturally born poor. Nobody told the Chinese or Africans to create that many poor people. Most of those children were born with the expectation that they die early. Isn't that cruel?

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#114

Post by imtringued »

krzyk wrote: post #71
etc-hosts wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The West didn't have land hungry pre WW2 Germany next to it.

> The West didn't have land hungry pre WW2 Germany next to it. Not sure if this is sarcasm, but I'll assume it is not. France and Poland send their regards.

Poland had been split 3 times by a Prussian+Austrian+Russian alliance long before WW2. Some of those nations were even trying to forcibly transplant their own culture in Poland.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#115

Post by trhway »

juki wrote: post #106
trhway wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nobody pressured Turkey (or Russia, in the era of Peter the Great) into trying to become more like Europe. history was pressuring. In both cases the more advanced, technically/militarily in particular, Europe was an existential threat - in case of Russia to make Russia (ie. Grand Duchy of Moscow) into a small dukedom far in the forests, and in case of Turkey - for example the post WW1 partitioning plan for Osman Emp…

> (ie. Grand Duchy of Moscow) The Grand Duchy of Moscow existed from 1263 to 1547, but the beard tax was from 1698 (Tsardom of Russia) to 1772 (Russian Empire).

the point here is that after Mongol period Russia started to collide in 15xx with Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth with the issue culminating in Polish invasion of 1610 resulting in Moscow capture and putting up Polish Prince as Tsar. It came pretty close to Russia just becoming a satellite province/vassal state of Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth. During the 16xx Swedish Empire is rising and is going south and east and firmly cutting Russia from Baltic Sea and taking a bunch of North West territories. In the second half of 16xx the slowing down Russia was no match for modern Sweden. Without Peter the Great's modernization (suppose his sister Sophia's coup succeeded) of Russia and winning the war with Sweden as a result, Russia would have most probably lost a lot of territories (including core territories like Novgorod and Moscow regions) in the next few decades to Sweden and Poland and, instead of becoming Russian Empire, would be reduced to some small dukedom(s) on the Eastern edges of Europe, and with probable forced Catholicization it would basically cease to exist as a familiar Russian state.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#116

Post by Guthur »

hereforphone wrote: post #3

The article states that this was part of an effort to reorient the country's culture. That might seem strange to Americans / Western Europeans today, but this was not an isolated case and while it might not be PC to say so, this could be a constructive thing (with the right approach and an amount of luck). A more modern example is Turkey, where Atatürk revised script, clothing, education, and many other aspects of th…

I don't think it started with Atatürk at all. The Ottomans were trying to follow a more European model for quite some time before WW1. Hence their close relation with Germany and folly of entering WW1.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#117

Post by imtringued »

988747 wrote: post #72
c-smile wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idea was good. Socialism works quite well at critical times. Just in case: pretty much each country, including US, handles COVID problem in typical socialistic state way.

Socialism is a perfect system. I mean: socialism is probably the system that God uses to rule his Angels in Heaven. It has only one tiny flaw: in order to work it requires the society to be perfect as well, and most importantly completely selfless. But for less than perfect societies capitalism works better, because it can turn people's flaws (i.e.: greed, ambition) for the common good.

Yes, I agree. Consider the greatest flaw in capitalism: Greedy people want greedy money for greedy people. The problem with greedy money is that it turns everyone into a greedy person. Similar dynamics exist for housing. People clearly want a gold style asset that they can greedily hold onto. The problem is that this greed gets in the way of the utility of the asset. Money exists as a medium of exchange (i.e. a means to repay debt) and real estate exists to house people.

It's funny how Bitcoin was created as a response to 2008 but all it merely did is replicate the flaws of conventional fiat currencies that lead to 2008 in a much shorter time span. All it shows is that the demand for greedy money is unstoppable.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#118

Post by rolleiflex »

johnthewise wrote: post #109
inglor_cz wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me for being inquisitive... Do you think that Imamoglu (Mayor of Istanbul) will run for presidency and win? Is there a reason to worry about a possible coup or large scale voting fraud if Erdogan is likely to lose? The current constitution of Turkey gives a lot of power to the President. Is the opposition ready to draft a new constitution with more checks and balances?

There seems to be two popular candidates at the moment, Yavas(Mayor of Ankara) and Imamoglu. Imamoglu looks to be more ambitious, thus it is likely he will run for presidency. All the current polls suggest either of them could win against Erdogan if the opposition can form an united front. It is easier than it would be in a parliamentary system, since if no candidate secures over fifty percent of the votes in the fir…

I don’t like Erdogan as much as the next guy, but the claims of a ‘corrupt’ judiciary and ‘paramilitary’ organisations are big accusations that need extraordinary evidence.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#119

Post by graeme »

soperj wrote: post #100
graeme wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t look at those numbers without comparing to other societies. Raising literacy over that time period….is not especially rare? Nor was industrialization. You’re giving them credit for something basically every european country did in that timeframe. And many other countries besides. Not strictly saying you’re wrong. I haven’t done the comparative argument so it’s possible they did have a comparative advantage…

Most european countries were already industrialized by the 1920s. None of them had literacy rates that low, and not one of them made it to space.

What about comparable countries then? Russia looks pretty similar to other country trends here:

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cross-country-literacy-ra...

In particular try Italy and Spain, countries with many peasants circa 1900. Virtually identical trajectories.

The USSR, if around today, would have a population of 300 million. They were a superpower. Only large powers made it to space. It was certainly impressive, but also a natural result if you have a large portion of your economy devoted to military spending and missile research. The space program in both USA and USSR allowed for ICBM delivery of nuclear warheads, a crucial strategic goal.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#120

Post by krzyk »

imtringued wrote: post #114
krzyk wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The West didn't have land hungry pre WW2 Germany next to it. Not sure if this is sarcasm, but I'll assume it is not. France and Poland send their regards.

Poland had been split 3 times by a Prussian+Austrian+Russian alliance long before WW2. Some of those nations were even trying to forcibly transplant their own culture in Poland.

This is a great lesson for all those playing Civilization-like games. Don't start a country on plains without any mountains or hills blocking access from at least 3 sides.

Poland was unlucky by having mountains in south, where we have rather peaceful nations. Sea from north (Swedes invaded Poland once, but that's mostly it) and nothing (except forests) from west (with Germany) and Russia in the east. (of course now it is a bit different, but lack of natural obstacles from east/west is still real).

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