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Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

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Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#101

Post by soperj »

tenfourwookie wrote: post #28
soperj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take an objective look at the USSR from 1917 to 1990, while there was a lot of bad things, they also completely industrialized the country, literacy rates went from 28% to 99.7% (triple it in the first 15 years, by trying to teach everyone to read their native language first instead of Russian first). They were the first country to put a man in space. I'm not sure that it was all disastrous.

Stalin would sign pages and pages of names for execution before going off for a nice weekend at the dacha, just because, let's say for expediency. You cannot rationalize away the horrors of 20th century Russia, certainly not with these bullet points. So we killed 30 million people, but look! Sputnik!

I wasn't trying to, but go on.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#102

Post by soperj »

boxerab wrote: post #88
soperj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take an objective look at the USSR from 1917 to 1990, while there was a lot of bad things, they also completely industrialized the country, literacy rates went from 28% to 99.7% (triple it in the first 15 years, by trying to teach everyone to read their native language first instead of Russian first). They were the first country to put a man in space. I'm not sure that it was all disastrous.

read Gulag Archipelago, then get back to me.

I already have actually, finished it near the start of covid. It's a great set of books.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#103

Post by inglor_cz »

rolleiflex wrote: post #29
hereforphone wrote: post #3

The article states that this was part of an effort to reorient the country's culture. That might seem strange to Americans / Western Europeans today, but this was not an isolated case and while it might not be PC to say so, this could be a constructive thing (with the right approach and an amount of luck). A more modern example is Turkey, where Atatürk revised script, clothing, education, and many other aspects of th…

As a Turkish person, we are reminded of this pretty much every day. However, it’s also important to avoid the cult of personality: Ataturk’s reforms did not come out of nothing. Turkey at that point had been a cosmopolitan society of many communities for almost a thousand years, many of which were non-Muslim and some of which were western. That kind of permanent interface was arguably one of the things that gave Turk…

Excuse me for being inquisitive...

Do you think that Imamoglu (Mayor of Istanbul) will run for presidency and win?

Is there a reason to worry about a possible coup or large scale voting fraud if Erdogan is likely to lose?

The current constitution of Turkey gives a lot of power to the President. Is the opposition ready to draft a new constitution with more checks and balances?

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#104

Post by ismaildonmez »

hereforphone wrote: post #31
rolleiflex wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Turkish person, we are reminded of this pretty much every day. However, it’s also important to avoid the cult of personality: Ataturk’s reforms did not come out of nothing. Turkey at that point had been a cosmopolitan society of many communities for almost a thousand years, many of which were non-Muslim and some of which were western. That kind of permanent interface was arguably one of the things that gave Turk…

PS - Excellent second paragraph, you're right - but I've been hearing that "this is the critical moment" for years. Are in in Turkey now? Where?

Like every year is the "Year of the Linux Desktop", it's the same for Turkey "This is the critical moment for Turkish democracy" ~ a fellow Turk in his late 30s.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#105

Post by inglor_cz »

Barrin92 wrote: post #85
sandworm101 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Countries are allowed to change. A country choosing to adopt the ways of another is only evil if it is forced upon them by outsiders. The leader of Turkey wanted to take his country in a particular direction. That is a valid local decision by a local leader. What is euro-centric is to dictate to those local leaders, to tell countries that they shouldn't change their culture as they see fit. Other countries are not mu…

> A country choosing to adopt the ways of another is only evil if it is forced upon them by outsiders. it's also quite a bad idea if it is forced upon your nation by an autocrat who tries to 'modernize' or secularize his own population without really considering if that's what they want. Modernizers like Atatürk had nothing to do with genuine change, they were trying to impose copied values from countries they percei…

The border is unclear, though.

Is post-WW2 West Germany a product of spontaneous pro-democratic change, or was Western-style democracy imposed on it by the occupying powers and Adenauer, the first Chancellor? After all, the country was still full of resentful Nazis and hopeful Communists (who built a strictly totalitarian German state just next door) in the early 50s.

Same question, but more pronounced, for post-WW2 Japan.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#106

Post by juki »

trhway wrote: post #80
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody pressured Turkey (or Russia, in the era of Peter the Great) into trying to become more like Europe. They chose it on their own. If you're going to say that their choice was wrong, that would be rather paternalistic, don't you think?

>Nobody pressured Turkey (or Russia, in the era of Peter the Great) into trying to become more like Europe. history was pressuring. In both cases the more advanced, technically/militarily in particular, Europe was an existential threat - in case of Russia to make Russia (ie. Grand Duchy of Moscow) into a small dukedom far in the forests, and in case of Turkey - for example the post WW1 partitioning plan for Osman Emp…

> (ie. Grand Duchy of Moscow)

The Grand Duchy of Moscow existed from 1263 to 1547, but the beard tax was from 1698 (Tsardom of Russia) to 1772 (Russian Empire).

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#107

Post by rolleiflex »

inglor_cz wrote: post #103
rolleiflex wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Turkish person, we are reminded of this pretty much every day. However, it’s also important to avoid the cult of personality: Ataturk’s reforms did not come out of nothing. Turkey at that point had been a cosmopolitan society of many communities for almost a thousand years, many of which were non-Muslim and some of which were western. That kind of permanent interface was arguably one of the things that gave Turk…

Excuse me for being inquisitive... Do you think that Imamoglu (Mayor of Istanbul) will run for presidency and win? Is there a reason to worry about a possible coup or large scale voting fraud if Erdogan is likely to lose? The current constitution of Turkey gives a lot of power to the President. Is the opposition ready to draft a new constitution with more checks and balances?

Imamoglu appears to be making much more headway into the conservative circles than any other secular leader, so it’s not obvious to me that he would lose if he tried. However, he is also a new name in Turkish politics, and only Istanbulites regularly hear of his name. While Istanbul is the heart of Turkey it’s not so dominant in a way that winning Istanbul practically guarantees the race — it doesn’t.

In short, I’m hopeful about him, and he’s already doing a good job in the second most powerful post in TR in terms of visibility. I’m not entirely sure his time for presidency has come yet, but if he thinks it has, he would have a fair shot at it.

> Is there a reason to worry about a possible coup or large scale voting fraud if Erdogan is likely to lose?

Turkish elections are one of the most closely watched in the world by international observers and they have a world-leading participation rate at 80+%, which is unheard of in most western democracies. It likely very hard to pull off large scale election fraud.

> The current constitution of Turkey gives a lot of power to the President. Is the opposition ready to draft a new constitution with more checks and balances?

Yes, this is the priority #1 for any incoming president that would not be Erdogan. He wanted the system to be essentially an elected emperorship by way of the Holy Roman Empire and he got unexpectedly close. That needs to be patched up.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#108

Post by rolleiflex »

AYBABTME wrote: post #98
rolleiflex wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turkey’s adolescence is full of trials indeed. Hopefully one day we’ll be able to look back at this and call it life experience.

Interesting to call "adolescent" such an old civilization. I wonder how frequently a given plot of land and people goes through a full human-like life. How often are regions reinventing themselves, over history?

I would consider the Turkish Republic a newborn at 1923, not a continuation of the Ottoman Empire from 1299, mostly because it was a switch in cultural codes and a reset in wealth. OE bequeathed very little wealth to TR, so this is the first time Turkey is coming to any significant wealth and influence in the world. The last time the government of Asia Minor had any real wealth and influence was early 19th century, and since that timespan is longer than a human life, the country ‘forgot’ to conduct itself gracefully.

Now, Turkey is trying to learn on the fly how not to be a bull in a china shop.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#109

Post by johnthewise »

inglor_cz wrote: post #103
rolleiflex wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Turkish person, we are reminded of this pretty much every day. However, it’s also important to avoid the cult of personality: Ataturk’s reforms did not come out of nothing. Turkey at that point had been a cosmopolitan society of many communities for almost a thousand years, many of which were non-Muslim and some of which were western. That kind of permanent interface was arguably one of the things that gave Turk…

Excuse me for being inquisitive... Do you think that Imamoglu (Mayor of Istanbul) will run for presidency and win? Is there a reason to worry about a possible coup or large scale voting fraud if Erdogan is likely to lose? The current constitution of Turkey gives a lot of power to the President. Is the opposition ready to draft a new constitution with more checks and balances?

There seems to be two popular candidates at the moment, Yavas(Mayor of Ankara) and Imamoglu. Imamoglu looks to be more ambitious, thus it is likely he will run for presidency. All the current polls suggest either of them could win against Erdogan if the opposition can form an united front. It is easier than it would be in a parliamentary system, since if no candidate secures over fifty percent of the votes in the first round, the top two candidates go for the second round of elections.

And yes, the opposition parties declared the next government would be a transitional one and curb the powers of the president

Erdogan has formed some paramilitary organizations in the recent years and these are worrying. However, the opposition literally watches over every single vote with multiple volunteers, lawyers and every single vote table gets recorded online in real time. It would be certainly hard to pull of a blatant fraud. Thats how opposition managed to win major cities few years back, against all corrupt judiciary branch.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#110

Post by johnthewise »

ramesh31 wrote: post #78
simonh wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The attempted coup was certainly a critical moment as well. It was passed when it became evident many of the protesters fighting back against the coup were political opponents of Erdogan. Hopefully that's settled one particular question - no more coups, even if it's against your political opponents. The coming election is I think another legitimately critical tests. It's not great that Turkey faces multiple critical…

>The attempted coup was certainly a critical moment as well. Was that really accepted by the Turkish people as a legitimate coup attempt? From an outside perspective it appeared almost comically staged.

More or less, since Turkish people had their share of unsuccessful and successful coup attempts in the past, it is not unimaginable. I would understand why it would look staged to outside observers. However, if a complex and dynamic process with many moving parts fail, it fails spectacularly.
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