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Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

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Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#31

Post by hereforphone »

rolleiflex wrote: post #29
hereforphone wrote: post #3

The article states that this was part of an effort to reorient the country's culture. That might seem strange to Americans / Western Europeans today, but this was not an isolated case and while it might not be PC to say so, this could be a constructive thing (with the right approach and an amount of luck). A more modern example is Turkey, where Atatürk revised script, clothing, education, and many other aspects of th…

As a Turkish person, we are reminded of this pretty much every day. However, it’s also important to avoid the cult of personality: Ataturk’s reforms did not come out of nothing. Turkey at that point had been a cosmopolitan society of many communities for almost a thousand years, many of which were non-Muslim and some of which were western. That kind of permanent interface was arguably one of the things that gave Turk…

PS - Excellent second paragraph, you're right - but I've been hearing that "this is the critical moment" for years. Are in in Turkey now? Where?

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#32

Post by ordu »

DaedPsyker wrote: post #4

It sounds like being ruled over by a socialite. I don't know anything about Peter, did he take anything apart from fashion from his grand tour? It says he worked at a shipyard which is admirable but no further mention of what impression that left.

All the later history of Russia was written in a narrative like "Pyotr the Great was the first sensible tzar". Even communists bought it. It says maybe more about who was paying historians for their work, than about Pyotr, but in any case it means that repercussions of his work lasted for centuries.

I'd say, that the most sensible tzar was Feodor, who worked before Pyotr, who worked on the same goal but much more sensible, it was a patient work through decades, but history remembers crazy kings, not sensible ones.

> It says he worked at a shipyard which is admirable but no further mention of what impression that left.

He also learned in Europe how to perform tooth extraction, and liked to pull teeth of members of his retinue. It is said, that it was a great entertainment for him to found someone with toothache.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#33

Post by ASalazarMX »

trident5000 wrote: post #10

As someone with a beard, I just cant imagine shaving every morning. Seems like a huge pain in the ass and waste of time. You do you if thats your thing though.

I prefer a beard because I'm lazy, but when I shaved, an electric shaver made the process quick and easy.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#34

Post by nIHOPp6MQw0f5ut »

soperj wrote: post #17
boxerab wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just perception - there was a very real conflict in the 19th century between traditional Russian values and western ideas such as nihilism and socialism. Dostoevsky was such an idealist in his youth, then turning his back on those movements after being imprisoned in hard labor camp. In his book Demons, he very much groks the dangers of these western ideas, which led to the disastrous 70 year reign of the Bolshevi…

If you take an objective look at the USSR from 1917 to 1990, while there was a lot of bad things, they also completely industrialized the country, literacy rates went from 28% to 99.7% (triple it in the first 15 years, by trying to teach everyone to read their native language first instead of Russian first). They were the first country to put a man in space. I'm not sure that it was all disastrous.

The west industrialized without gulags.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#35

Post by rolleiflex »

hereforphone wrote: post #31
rolleiflex wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Turkish person, we are reminded of this pretty much every day. However, it’s also important to avoid the cult of personality: Ataturk’s reforms did not come out of nothing. Turkey at that point had been a cosmopolitan society of many communities for almost a thousand years, many of which were non-Muslim and some of which were western. That kind of permanent interface was arguably one of the things that gave Turk…

PS - Excellent second paragraph, you're right - but I've been hearing that "this is the critical moment" for years. Are in in Turkey now? Where?

There are elections coming in 2023 (as scheduled) and possibly earlier if the opposition manages to force it due to current low confidence in the government. All prior ‘this is critical’ moments were either local elections (cannot affect the national gov’t) or sort of wishful thinking on the opposition’s part. This one is different, because Erdogan is not only not polling first in a very long time, he is polling fourth and the last.

It also is significant because the collapse of TRY to half its prior value was both swift and for the first time ever, visibly caused by bad leadership.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#36

Post by shrubble »

soperj wrote: post #17
boxerab wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just perception - there was a very real conflict in the 19th century between traditional Russian values and western ideas such as nihilism and socialism. Dostoevsky was such an idealist in his youth, then turning his back on those movements after being imprisoned in hard labor camp. In his book Demons, he very much groks the dangers of these western ideas, which led to the disastrous 70 year reign of the Bolshevi…

If you take an objective look at the USSR from 1917 to 1990, while there was a lot of bad things, they also completely industrialized the country, literacy rates went from 28% to 99.7% (triple it in the first 15 years, by trying to teach everyone to read their native language first instead of Russian first). They were the first country to put a man in space. I'm not sure that it was all disastrous.

The 60 million people killed during the Bokshevik reign are unavailable for comment, however.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#37

Post by [deleted] »

shrubble wrote: post #36
soperj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take an objective look at the USSR from 1917 to 1990, while there was a lot of bad things, they also completely industrialized the country, literacy rates went from 28% to 99.7% (triple it in the first 15 years, by trying to teach everyone to read their native language first instead of Russian first). They were the first country to put a man in space. I'm not sure that it was all disastrous.

The 60 million people killed during the Bokshevik reign are unavailable for comment, however.

[deleted]

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#38

Post by sandworm101 »

vagrantJin wrote: post #12
hereforphone wrote: post #3

The article states that this was part of an effort to reorient the country's culture. That might seem strange to Americans / Western Europeans today, but this was not an isolated case and while it might not be PC to say so, this could be a constructive thing (with the right approach and an amount of luck). A more modern example is Turkey, where Atatürk revised script, clothing, education, and many other aspects of th…

> while it might not be PC to say so, this could be a constructive thing That's called euro-centrism isn't it. And every westerner believes wholeheartedly that it is the best most constructive thing to do. So it is neither right nor wrong politically. But it does dull the world when every place you go to is Europe in microcosm. That is a true vision of dystopian hell itself.

Countries are allowed to change. A country choosing to adopt the ways of another is only evil if it is forced upon them by outsiders. The leader of Turkey wanted to take his country in a particular direction. That is a valid local decision by a local leader. What is euro-centric is to dictate to those local leaders, to tell countries that they shouldn't change their culture as they see fit. Other countries are not museums needing protection from change.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#39

Post by hereforphone »

rolleiflex wrote: post #35
hereforphone wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PS - Excellent second paragraph, you're right - but I've been hearing that "this is the critical moment" for years. Are in in Turkey now? Where?

There are elections coming in 2023 (as scheduled) and possibly earlier if the opposition manages to force it due to current low confidence in the government. All prior ‘this is critical’ moments were either local elections (cannot affect the national gov’t) or sort of wishful thinking on the opposition’s part. This one is different, because Erdogan is not only not polling first in a very long time, he is polling four…

For fun I walked around the lise that was the polling center during an election 4-5 years ago. There were poll workers caught stealing votes. There was a vehicle without a license plate waiting outside the front door of the school to steal the ballot box if necessary.

There is also a massive influx of Syrian refugees who may be allowed to vote... and these refugees are said to almost entirely vote according to the Islamic perspective.

I don't see Erdoğan losing if the election were to be held today. But a lot can change in a couple of years, and as you say the economic situation may aid the opposition.

Re: Peter the Great’s Beard Tax

#40

Post by simonh »

hereforphone wrote: post #31
rolleiflex wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Turkish person, we are reminded of this pretty much every day. However, it’s also important to avoid the cult of personality: Ataturk’s reforms did not come out of nothing. Turkey at that point had been a cosmopolitan society of many communities for almost a thousand years, many of which were non-Muslim and some of which were western. That kind of permanent interface was arguably one of the things that gave Turk…

PS - Excellent second paragraph, you're right - but I've been hearing that "this is the critical moment" for years. Are in in Turkey now? Where?

The attempted coup was certainly a critical moment as well. It was passed when it became evident many of the protesters fighting back against the coup were political opponents of Erdogan. Hopefully that's settled one particular question - no more coups, even if it's against your political opponents.

The coming election is I think another legitimately critical tests. It's not great that Turkey faces multiple critical tests, in a relatively short period of time in the grand scheme of things, but the important thing is it passes them.

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