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Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

jacobinmag.com

141–150 of 271 posts

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#141
post #48

Like a lot of these stories there’s lots of ways to spin reality. Headline could read “Company turns up providing much needed high paying jobs to region left devastated by failed industries (steel, manufacturing, …”. Or you could say “Evil company moved in and sets up company town.” Honestly agnostic to this whole thing but it’s interesting to watch efforts to spin things one way or another.

Companies don’t provide jobs. People provide labor and companies exploit said labor for profit.

The comment you replied to predicted your comment:

> it’s interesting to watch efforts to spin things one way or another

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#142
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He said a lot of them tried to hire people for less than full time to avoid having to provide benefits. There needs to be naming and shaming of those that perpetuate this practice. I know retailers (Tractor Supply) for cashiers. If you're doing warehouse work, you are part of the logistics backbone, you deserve not to have your chain jerked around. Arguably, no one should be getting their chain jerked around, but I'…

What causes this is trying to mandate "benefits" by law. Suppose the benefits cost the company the equivalent of $3/hour. Then at the same cost they can either offer a job that pays $15/hour without benefits or a job that pays $12/hour with benefits. They're not idiots; they're going to offer the one that best allows them hire and retain workers. That it happens to be the one with the higher pay should be telling us…

Benefits only work if there's a large population where the risks can be averaged out. If you let people pick and choose whether they want insurance, people with known health problems will overwhelmingly want insurance, and the price will be driven up. Really this shouldn't be dealt with at the employer level but by the government - there's a net public good to everyone having guaranteed healthcare, because preventative care avoids larger emergency expenses and allows for more efficient allocation of resources. But instead you get this hyper-individualism where people want to opt into the social contract piecemeal at the time it benefits them, and opt out when it doesn't.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How dare workers ask to not be treated like shit! /s You do know Amazon has been caught union busting right? I'm not so sure what your definition of democracy is when workers can't voice their concerns.

Interesting. I must have missed the point when unions became about voicing concerns. Last I recall, creating unions is an attempt at monopolizing labor to extort the employer. When this tactic is applied to any other factor of production it is called a “cartel” and engaged in “market manipulation.” How surprising that employers who pay above-market wages do not wish to be extorted further. All the modern propaganda s…

> creating unions is an attempt at monopolizing labor to extort the employer. When this tactic is applied to any other factor of production it is called a “cartel” and engaged in “market manipulation.”

Wow, I’m not even gonna comment on this first paragraph. I only have one question: do you live in the US?

> How surprising that employers who pay above-market wages do not wish to be extorted further.

Employers in our current system always pay their employees less than what they produce for them, it’s called profit.

Are you really claiming that tech workers extort Silicon Valley companies because they get paid a lot of money? Wow I didn’t expect that argument.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What causes this is trying to mandate "benefits" by law. Suppose the benefits cost the company the equivalent of $3/hour. Then at the same cost they can either offer a job that pays $15/hour without benefits or a job that pays $12/hour with benefits. They're not idiots; they're going to offer the one that best allows them hire and retain workers. That it happens to be the one with the higher pay should be telling us…

Benefits only work if there's a large population where the risks can be averaged out. If you let people pick and choose whether they want insurance, people with known health problems will overwhelmingly want insurance, and the price will be driven up. Really this shouldn't be dealt with at the employer level but by the government - there's a net public good to everyone having guaranteed healthcare, because preventati…

I 100% agree that adverse selection is a problem, but the government's rule doesn't really fix it. All that happened is that people with known health problems will look harder for full-time jobs, and healthier people will take the part-time jobs that pay slightly more per hour.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#145
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't this mainly because paying in anything other then the national currency is illegal in most western nations? For tax purposes, even things like free lunch are considered paymeny aswell.

Assume that I give you on top of salary Amazon coupons for 1000$. No tax shenanigans. I (employer ) pay all needed taxes to be clean with IRS. This way I can guarantee quite a nice chunk of revenue for the whole foods store that is opened there. And I effectively subsidize it.

Even better: Make it an employee discount of 50% off at Whole Foods for all Amazon employees, up to some monthly limit. If structured this way, would it even be taxable at all? I'm not aware of employee discounts being taxed.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#146
post #21

A key aspect of company towns is that there's only one serious employer. This then gives that employer a very dangerous amount of power, which is why we don't like this structure. Possibly this is true in don't places with Amazon, but the article doesn't make the argument. The closest they get is saying that Amazon is a large employer in Seattle, but that's not enough -- the city is large enough that there are tons o…

It's a band aid to bridge the gap between the insane demand in HCOL areas and the inability to find labor in those markets.

How can you staff a warehouse for $15/hr in places were a studio starts at $1250/mo?

I wouldn't be one bit surprised of Amazon starts getting into real estate, offering employees monthly "rent vouchers".

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#147
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why aren't they providing this alternative? Because Bezos/Amazon spent years building barriers to entry? Because people's preference for shopping at Amazon, like their preference for shopping at malls 30-40 years earlier, began the disintegration of other forms of retail work? Because "fulfillment" centers (are you fulfilled yet?) benefit from being in locations that are not typically the ones where people are choo…

>Because Bezos/Amazon spent years building barriers to entry? What barriers? Is amazon lobbying local governments to prevent competitor warehouses from being built? Or is they're just so ahead of everyone in terms of service/price? >Because people's preference for shopping at Amazon, like their preference for shopping at malls 30-40 years earlier, began the disintegration of other forms of retail work? People's prefe…

> What barriers?

It's likely that you don't know that I was the 2nd employee at Amazon. I don't want to spend time here going into all the ways that Bezos sought to create barriers to entry for competitors, but Brad Stone's two books on the company get into this.

> People's preferences change. If something better comes along,

People in general are very bad at carrying out long term analysis of their preference-based decisions. People went to malls while professing to love Main St., most of them not realizing that the former would eventually kill the economics of the latter. Likewise, people's preference for online shopping doesn't actually amount to a desire to kill bricks-n-mortar retail, even though that is (likely) the eventual result. People's preferences generally express short-term feelings, rather than longer term rational analyses of how their lives, homes and societies may be affected by their choices.

> If amazon warehouses are located in "locations that are not typically the ones where people are choosing to live", doesn't that mean they'll have an harder time finding workers and you having an easier time finding workers?

That's why there's an article on HN (Jacobin, really) title "Amazon is creating company towns across the United States".

> but in metropolitan areas they're almost always surrounded by houses

Most of amzn's fulfillment centers are rural or exurban. Most of amzn's current development plans are focused on rural locations.

And I described this in order to make the point that rural areas are almost always more difficult places to generate economic alternatives than cities.

> I'm not sure why it has to be employee owned

The question was about alternatives. Jacobin authors probably don't see much difference trading one multi-billionaire CEO for another, so I was mentioning the most practical genuine alternative to the sort of economic entity that amzn represents.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies don’t provide jobs. People provide labor and companies exploit said labor for profit.

The comment you replied to predicted your comment: > it’s interesting to watch efforts to spin things one way or another

political and class ambivalence is also a way to spin things. which the original comment itself did. this is a navel-gazing, meaningless criticism. if you disagree substantively you should just say so.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#149
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A relative worked at Amazon’s warehouse, he described it as slightly above average pay for the area with above average benefits. However, the job really sucks, injuries are common, and turnover is high at least in VA. There is a huge range of warehouse jobs including many with a lot of paid downtime, the easier the job the less they can pay.

Serious question, how do you injure yourself in an Amazon warehouse? I thought there wasn't any heavy machinery or other dangerous machines. Is it just from too much walking?

Aren't they lifting and moving packages? All sorts of muscle strains possible from that. Especially if there is little downtime for rest throughout the day.
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