Live data from Hacker News

Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

jacobinmag.com

121–130 of 271 posts

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#121
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't this mainly because paying in anything other then the national currency is illegal in most western nations? For tax purposes, even things like free lunch are considered paymeny aswell.

> isn't this mainly because paying in anything other then the national currency is illegal in most western nations? Which makes company towns illegal, hence Amazon is not creating company towns...

[deleted]

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#122
post #100

> the warehouse worker is neither seen nor heard by the customer; at least at Walmart, you go to a store and you see the workers — you know they exist. This made me think of the movie 'The Island' where in one scene, somewhere in the beginning of the movie, they show us the work our protagonists do in their community. There are tubes coming out of the wall on one side of the room and out the other; tubes which have a…

>I honestly think everyone around us is capable of so much more. Our current system, through Intellectual Property types such as copyrights and trade secrets, has made it hard to ascend 'intellectual ladders' because the intellectual ladders used by those in power have kicked them away (after they were used by them). Can you give some examples? "Intellectual Property" isn't preventing you from learning programming an…

> "Intellectual Property" isn't preventing you from learning programming and earning 6 figures.

I honestly believe you might be missing the bigger picture here.

"Whereas we were once led to believe that the network society would produce an egalitarian world, we increasingly see tech as a machine for the commodification of information itself. Something that has the potential to be abundant is made artificially scarce, because capital finds it profitable to enclose the digital commons and dictate its terms of access. [...] These corporations serve social functions integral to modern life, in ways similar to industries that were nationalised in the past — and yet, not only are they not publicly owned, they are immune to any sort of democratic control.

This is the dark side of Silicon Valley, the uncomfortable reality that lurks beneath its glitzy exterior. Whatever its emancipatory narrative, Silicon Valley is facilitating a system where wealth concentrates, labour is disciplined, the public sphere is diminished, and global inequities are reinforced."

From earlier in the article:

"The most salient example is Apple: recently crowned the world’s most valuable company, Apple rakes in enormous quarterly profits even as the Chinese workers who actually assemble its products are driven to suicide." [1]

My comment isn't about me being able to 'learn programming and earn 6 figures', as you put it, it's about the overarching system, laws and culture that surround us all.

This also feels relevant:

""Knowledge is power and so it tends to be hoarded. Experts in any field rarely want people to understand what they do, and generally enjoy putting people down." [ - Ted Nelson]

Computer Lib was published in 1974, and it’s kind of eerie that those words ring so true today. The tech industry that grew out of this knowledge still feels like a priesthood, one dominated by men who are either white or a specific kind of Asian, who define the parameters of what’s considered “real” tech talent according to what they themselves are good at. They hire people with similar academic backgrounds, programming journeys, and knack for solving brainteaser questions in interviews as themselves.

The worst of them outright resent the existence of coding bootcamps and other efforts to get underrepresented groups into tech, seeing them as a threat to their own privileged status, even if they wouldn’t admit it as such. They’re not real programmers, so the reasoning goes, if they didn’t go through the desert of learning how to code in the days before GitHub and StackOverflow and Codecademy, when you asked for help on mailing lists and IRC channels and usually expected no response. Unlike the high priests who discovered tech long before they knew how lucrative it could be, these newcomers are motivated primarily by the money, and that makes their qualifications suspect. For many of them, it’s just a job - the worst possible sin to those who believe you should do what you love, and who perhaps spent some of their most formative years in social isolation in pursuit of that love.

I definitely went through a phase, probably entwined with my Ayn Rand phase, where I wholeheartedly believed this view. It took a while before I saw it for the self-aggrandising gatekeeping it is. It’s similar to what Alex Williams has called “negative solidarity”: a requirement that other people suffer as you have, not because you believe that it will be better for them, but because it makes you feel better about yourself. The most common form of gatekeeping that occurs in tech isn’t driven by a noble desire to build better products by keeping out the less capable; it’s driven by a much more selfish desire to implicitly validate the choices and skills and perspectives of those already doing well in the industry." [2]

[1] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley

[2] https://dellsystem.me/posts/fragments-50

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#123
post #48

Like a lot of these stories there’s lots of ways to spin reality. Headline could read “Company turns up providing much needed high paying jobs to region left devastated by failed industries (steel, manufacturing, …”. Or you could say “Evil company moved in and sets up company town.” Honestly agnostic to this whole thing but it’s interesting to watch efforts to spin things one way or another.

Companies don’t provide jobs. People provide labor and companies exploit said labor for profit.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#124
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't this mainly because paying in anything other then the national currency is illegal in most western nations? For tax purposes, even things like free lunch are considered paymeny aswell.

Assume that I give you on top of salary Amazon coupons for 1000$. No tax shenanigans. I (employer ) pay all needed taxes to be clean with IRS. This way I can guarantee quite a nice chunk of revenue for the whole foods store that is opened there. And I effectively subsidize it.

The way I've seen taxes get handled for something like this is that the company giving, say, a $1000 out-of-band benefit will actually top it up to $1250 or whatever the appropriate amount is so it's (approximately) giving a $1,000 post tax benefit.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#125
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a long-time friend who tried to get an Amazon Warehouse job after relocating to a new city for his SO’s career. Given all of the negative press he assumed they’d be desperate for employees and he could walk right into the job. It turns out those jobs are highly competitive in the area because they paid relatively well and had good benefits. The hourly rate alone doesn’t tell the full story. Many more typical w…

>He said a lot of them tried to hire people for less than full time to avoid having to provide benefits. There needs to be naming and shaming of those that perpetuate this practice. I know retailers (Tractor Supply) for cashiers. If you're doing warehouse work, you are part of the logistics backbone, you deserve not to have your chain jerked around. Arguably, no one should be getting their chain jerked around, but I'…

What causes this is trying to mandate "benefits" by law.

Suppose the benefits cost the company the equivalent of $3/hour. Then at the same cost they can either offer a job that pays $15/hour without benefits or a job that pays $12/hour with benefits. They're not idiots; they're going to offer the one that best allows them hire and retain workers.

That it happens to be the one with the higher pay should be telling us something -- that some workers value the money over the benefits.

Which makes a lot of sense. Many people have a family health plan from their spouse's job. They may value the flexibility of choosing when to take unpaid time off instead of working for $12/hour with paid time off, which is a monetary loss equivalent to more than 10 weeks of unpaid time off when working at $15/hour instead. They simply get less from the benefits than they get from being paid the money it costs the employer to provide them.

Stop requiring employers to provide "benefits" that many employees don't want and people wouldn't have to voluntarily work around it like this, at the cost of being unable to work 40 hours a week even if you want to.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#126

I suppose the name of the magazine implies this, but the amount of "concept terms" loaded into each sentence sounds so old timey, or something, to me. " Such a relationship between the company and public goods like a high school is part of what it means to consider Amazon as “the major working-class space of suburban and exurban socialization.” The behemoth is here, producing not only profit but people, too. That ent…

It’s socialist intelligentsia lingo. For whatever reason, that field writes in a style that favors high-specificity jargon.

I know what kind of lingo it is, just remarking on how much of it there is in every sentence.

IDK if I'd call the jargon high-specificity though. I'd say that it tends to be broad and abstract. "Suburban and exurban socialization" isn't highly specific.

As I mentioned though, it's not very different from the tech world jargon that's more common on HN. IE, when we talk about "disruptive," "democratizing," "platform" or somesuch. These are loaded terms too.

I was just noting that with concepts like "alienation," it's hard to imagine explaining it to someone without referring to past centuries, artisan candlemakers or somesuch.

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#127
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I honestly think everyone around us is capable of so much more. Our current system, through Intellectual Property types such as copyrights and trade secrets, has made it hard to ascend 'intellectual ladders' because the intellectual ladders used by those in power have kicked them away (after they were used by them). Can you give some examples? "Intellectual Property" isn't preventing you from learning programming an…

> "Intellectual Property" isn't preventing you from learning programming and earning 6 figures. I honestly believe you might be missing the bigger picture here. "Whereas we were once led to believe that the network society would produce an egalitarian world, we increasingly see tech as a machine for the commodification of information itself. Something that has the potential to be abundant is made artificially scarce,…

I fail to see how this has anything to do with your original claim that "Intellectual Property types such as copyrights and trade secrets, has made it hard to ascend 'intellectual ladders'". or that "everyone around us is capable of so much more."

Re: Amazon Is Creating Company Towns Across the United States

#128
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He said a lot of them tried to hire people for less than full time to avoid having to provide benefits. There needs to be naming and shaming of those that perpetuate this practice. I know retailers (Tractor Supply) for cashiers. If you're doing warehouse work, you are part of the logistics backbone, you deserve not to have your chain jerked around. Arguably, no one should be getting their chain jerked around, but I'…

> There needs to be naming and shaming It's probably easier to name and promote the few places that don't do the "39.5hr week".

I thought the cutoff was 29.5 hours, otherwise they would have to offer health insurance due to the Affordable Care Act. I haven’t worked those types of jobs in 10+ years but that’s how it was back then at least.
Post reply on HN