Schools opened, suicide attempts in girls skyrocketed • Hacker News Board

Re: Schools opened, suicide attempts in girls skyrocketed

#71

Post by isthisreality » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

Dumblydorr wrote: post #44

This data isn't that convincing, a lot of factors go into this messy correlation between ED visits for girl suicide attempts and covid closure of schools. The title of the link doesn't mention ED visits for attempts, which is the actual outcome of interest here, so IMO the link title is too strongly worded from an epidemiologists viewpoint. Now conjecturing as to correlation confounders. Maybe the girls need more tim…

The higher attempt rate for girls is probably due to boys being more effective at killing themselves (4x as effective, in fact).

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27942628

Re: Schools opened, suicide attempts in girls skyrocketed

#72

Post by SavantIdiot » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

isthisreality wrote: post #22

isthisreality wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> During February 21–March 20, 2021, suspected suicide attempt ED visits were 50.6% higher among girls aged 12–17 years than during the same period in 2019; among boys aged 12–17 years, suspected suicide attempt ED visits increased 3.7%. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7024e1.htm

Comparatively speaking, at least gender-wise, this data should be taken with a grain of salt. Males are historically more effective at killing themselves. This data only looks at ED visits and you don't go to the hospital when you're clearly dead. And if you assume "suicide attempt" is using the technical definition [1], they're only looking at ED visits where the patient did not die. Males aged 15 to 24 were 4x as l…

EDIT: I find it gross that some people always want to take over a discussion about women and make it about men.

Re: Schools opened, suicide attempts in girls skyrocketed

#73

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

voisin wrote: post #53

mprovost wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instagram was founded in 2010.

I am not disagreeing but I am interested to know which specific factors make it so different from things in the past. I remember growing up and the boogeyman was sexualized videos on MTV and violent video games. I didn’t believe it then and I don’t quite believe it now. Not to say I don’t believe social media has negative impacts but this is a pretty sharp rise. It also coincided with the post-2009 financial crisis.…

If you really want to see "who" is most affected by this, divide it up by state and income. If we see that most states align with this, we could attribute it to your statement. However, if it's solely based on income, then higher income states will outweigh lower income ones and we'd be able to pinpoint it to affluence and the pressures of innadequacy.

Re: Schools opened, suicide attempts in girls skyrocketed

#74

Post by Zababa » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

duxup wrote: post #15

mensetmanusman wrote: post #10

“ In writing this, I have found the surprising reverse correlation between suicidal behavior and time spent in school—both prior to the Covid-19 pandemic and during it—gnawing at me. Could it be that the pressures around school itself are among the most important stressors related to suicidality among teens? If that’s so, the underlying reasons could be related either to academic or social pressures. Regardless, no o…

>One could argue that in person schooling should be an option moving forward. Would that have an impact longer term / have any other consequences? I feel like there's just so much more to this than 'more suicides, in person school optional now... problem solved?' For someone contemplating suicide is just not going to school a solution to their struggles?

> For someone contemplating suicide is just not going to school a solution to their struggles?

It could be if you're suffering heavily from bullying.

Re: Schools opened, suicide attempts in girls skyrocketed

#75

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

bloopernova wrote: post #51

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #39

I have a theory I'd propose: The biggest cause of teen suicide is essentially feeling rejected in some way by your peers: being bullied, a breakup, "mean girl" switches from former friends, etc. When schools closed, the immediate pressure of any of these negative social interactions went to the background (or at least simmered on social media). When schools reopened, kids tried to figure out where they fit back in th…

Anecdotally: I was bullied a lot in school. When I became avoidant and just stayed at home, I was a lot happier because I didn't have those stressors.

Agreed. Honestly, there are many times I've been very thankful that I grew up in an age before social media. At least when I went home the torment would stop and I could relax somewhat. I think kids who are bullied today have it so much worse with the ever presence of cellphones and the internet.

Re: Schools opened, suicide attempts in girls skyrocketed

#76

Post by UncleMeat » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

sodality2 wrote: post #59

UncleMeat wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common parlance. The assumed situation is that isolation would increase mental health problems and suicide risk. Instead it went in the other direction. To distinguish this from positive correlation for nontechnical readers, “reverse correlation” makes sense.

Would it not be inverse or negative correlation, instead?

Technically a negative correlation, but I'm not sure that this wording would be more clear for readers.

Re: Schools opened, suicide attempts in girls skyrocketed

#77

Post by isthisreality » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #39

I have a theory I'd propose: The biggest cause of teen suicide is essentially feeling rejected in some way by your peers: being bullied, a breakup, "mean girl" switches from former friends, etc. When schools closed, the immediate pressure of any of these negative social interactions went to the background (or at least simmered on social media). When schools reopened, kids tried to figure out where they fit back in th…

Are those causes or just symptoms of a society in which parents and schools are inadequately preparing the youth for emotional trauma, how to handle it, and how to not be a sociopath?

Re: Schools opened, suicide attempts in girls skyrocketed

#78

Post by retrac » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

MrFoof wrote: post #70

Dumblydorr wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you handle it if they begged, pleaded, and explained how all their friends use it and it'd be social ostracism to not use it? I'm not a parent yet but I dread this situation. I'm good at denying urges personally, so I'd tell them desire is a constant part of life, we can't always get what we crave. Further, I'd state actual facts about girls mental health, they will see and be exposed to unhealthy mindsets…

From what I hear from everyone I know with kids... >How would you handle it if they bought their own 2nd cellphone, and only used the cellular network to escape your control. That's what really happens. Lock your kid down? They'll get right around it by going outside of the infrastructure and devices you supply. They'll just carry two phones around, and you just won't be wiser about the second one unless you catch th…

Yes. Our collective age is showing, perhaps. One can buy a new phone or tablet, with a month's data plan, with a few days' lunch money now, in some places. This translates into there being no practical way to keep a dedicated teenager off the Internet, unless they're literally never allowed out of the house and monitored 24/7. (And that might well be child abuse without very good cause! And you've probably already lost if you're at that point, anyway.)

It won't work with every child... but I am a big believer in fostering the means for a child to make the right decisions for themselves. Yes, the social pressures are immense. But you know, I do remember following my dad's advice to get up a few times an hour, exercise and stretch, when playing video games. Older children worry about their health, and try to make good decisions within their abilities, just like adults do. Perhaps we can't really protect them from this per se, and can only try to help the next generation save themselves, from this mess we've made for them.

Re: Schools opened, suicide attempts in girls skyrocketed

#79

Post by wizzwizz4 » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

retrac wrote: post #68

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The school system is a highly abusive environment, in many places. Young adults doing meaningless busywork in a highly-restrictive environment with artificial social dynamics is bad enough without some of them being modelled off prisons.

"Young adults doing meaningless busywork in a highly restrictive environment with artificial social dynamics", unfortunately, also sounds a lot like college and many jobs. (I personally found school a torment -- ignored and bored -- but somehow I was fortunate enough not to be outright bullied... until my first job.)

Hmm… A cynic¹ would say that school is intended to train children to put up with such an environment. I think a greater effect is bad environment design, people copying the familiar without paying attention to the trade-offs, and the inertia of how things used to be done.

¹: someone overly cynical; not an adherent of cynicism

Re: Schools opened, suicide attempts in girls skyrocketed

#80

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Jul 24, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

voisin wrote: post #53

mprovost wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instagram was founded in 2010.

I am not disagreeing but I am interested to know which specific factors make it so different from things in the past. I remember growing up and the boogeyman was sexualized videos on MTV and violent video games. I didn’t believe it then and I don’t quite believe it now. Not to say I don’t believe social media has negative impacts but this is a pretty sharp rise. It also coincided with the post-2009 financial crisis.…

I am sure there are myriad reasons, and surely the underlying fact of income/wealth/security gap widening plays a role in all of the change we are seeing.

But I would posit that it is possible that constant exposure to people in your network's achievements (or appearances thereof) can elicit emotions that have negative consequences over long periods of time. I think tribal species probably have an innate function of trying to sort and rank members for various purposes, and maybe that program can get overloaded.