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Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

theatlantic.com

341–350 of 647 posts

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's an upside if you're looking to be equitable.

You are making an implicit assumption that groups should be treated equitably. Some of us disagree with that--we feel *individuals* should be treated equitably and see these attempts to treat groups equitably as treating individuals *inequitably*. Why should my chance of getting into college be hampered by where my parents live or what color skin they gave me?? Aiding one person is inherently discriminating against a…

> Why should my chance of getting into college be hampered by where my parents live or what color skin they gave me?

Why should theirs be hampered by the same?

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#342
post #6

There is no real evidence for the idea that a difference in scores predicts a difference in performance, once you are above some threshold. They should keep the test, but use a threshold (per major and school) with a lottery for everyone above the threshold. And admit a small number below at random to keep evaluating what the threshold should be.

> There is no real evidence for the idea that a difference in scores predicts a difference in performance,

Except for the gigantic study commissioned by the UC system the article references?

“ Second, while high-school GPA has been found to be more predictive of success at college than standardized test scores at some schools, the exact opposite turns out to be true for students at UC schools. There, standardized test scores say more about which applicants are likely to earn a degree and to do it in less than eight years; they also correlate strongly with students’ GPA at the university.”

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#343

Cancelling SAT (especially subject exams) is the stupidest decision I've seen anywhere. Make access more fair? Sure. Cancel it? Plain wrong! How do I know? I'm one of those students who didn't have stellar high school grades, but I excelled in subject exams --- those subjects were genuinely interesting to me (math, science). I didn't find the rest of high school interesting, and I wasn't a nerd nerd studying anything…

> I'm not even counted as "diverse" (because I'm not black or hispanic) despite coming from a muslim family and middle eastern background. I can only select "white", though I'm not white white. Should that even matter for admission purposes?

No it shouldn't, but as a society we seem to want it to so it does.

Sowell has an interesting take on AA and believes it actually does more harm than good because it pits those subject to it against scenarios they have not been prepared to handle and thus in turn results in over-stress, higher rates of failure, and ultimately disillusionment.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#344
post #295

The article makes no mention of the lawsuit that was brought against the UC system. They ended up settling, with the UC system agreeing to stop using the SAT for the next 5 years. I think the lawsuit had a lot more influence on the decision than most people think. https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Judge-bars-Uni... https://www.sfchronicle.com/local/article/UC-settles-student...

> The article makes no mention of the lawsuit that was brought against the UC system. The article very clearly references the lawsuit: "Do the tests prevent low-income Black and Latino students from getting college degrees? This is the charge of a lawsuit filed in 2019 and settled by the university in May"

oops, good catch.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#345

Cancelling SAT (especially subject exams) is the stupidest decision I've seen anywhere. Make access more fair? Sure. Cancel it? Plain wrong! How do I know? I'm one of those students who didn't have stellar high school grades, but I excelled in subject exams --- those subjects were genuinely interesting to me (math, science). I didn't find the rest of high school interesting, and I wasn't a nerd nerd studying anything…

> I'm one of those students who didn't have stellar high school grades, but I excelled in subject exams

I'm in the same boat. If it weren't for my SAT scores, most colleges wouldn't take me seriously.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#346
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly you've never tried to purchase real estate in the Bay or done the math. $140k after taxes is more like 90k, and then rent eats up $25k of that alone. Subtract another $25k for living expenses (food, insurance, car, etc.) and you're left with 40k, which realistically you'd be dumping into a retirement fund. 2 bedroom house in a decent location with decent schools costs well over $1.5M, plus the insane property…

"functioning real estate markets" Is the housing market in the Bay area really uniquely dysfunctional? High property prices are a result of demand outstripping supply. It's what you get for concentrating the entire tech industry in one place. Similar to Manhattan and the financial industry. In that regard, the real estate market in the Bay area is basically working as intended. Or am I missing something?

By functioning, I mean markets where the local property owners haven't colluded to restrict supply via bullshit environmental assays, zoning, etc. Or at least they haven't sufficiently colluded to the level of straight up preventing new housing from being built.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#347
IMO a solution the higher-education issue both in terms of cost & acceptance is to force any public or publicly funded school (i.e all of them just like Title IX did) to:

1. Offer all undergrad classes online, without capacity limits , and at a lower price. [1] 2. Degrees are awarded on some tiered scale (instead of the college's name?). 3. All student outcomes are published including % that get a job within 6 months & average starting salary. 4. Most classes can be passed/skipped via an exam of some sort. 5. All amenity/building costs are optional or part of the in-person price.

Certainly lots of students prefer or say they prefer small, physical classes but if the online cost is 1/10 of the physical price then you can prioritize which classes you prefer in person vs online.

The cost breakdown would be like this:

* ~$200 to take the class online or ~$2000 to take it in-person. * ~$50 to just take the exam.

If you take 8/10 classes online and take 1/10 as an exam and 1/10 in-person; then you save ~82% ($3,650 vs $20,000). This puts the cost easily within a summer job.

The tiered scale would probably just be putting the GPA on the degree. (It will never happen but I think it would be good if the degree lacked the school's name and school's would not disclose if the student attend that specific school.)

This would be a drastic change but the current system is extremely biased to the kind of student/person that schools like for their 'culture'. We essentially have an Instagram version of education that's pay-to-play and pay-to-win.

The counter argument is always that college is about network effects that can only be accessed in person. I think this is absurd since a good portion of students don't have the luxury/desire to build those connections. In undergrad, I bet it's less than 5% that benefit (but those 5% benefit a lot). In any case, schools shouldn't be using admission requirements to boost their schools reputation. e.g taking Calc 1 at a Ivy school isn't very impressive besides the fact you are at an Ivy league school.

There are certainly a lot of other issues to resolve. Schools would hate it because they couldn't be prestigious simply because they are very selective and wouldn't be able to spread costs around between colleges/classes. Professors would hate it because they would have to have an online class (which they seem to hate). Etc.

[1] Obviously lab classes cannot be 100% online but in this the student should be mostly free to take the class at any physical school. A titration lab is still just a titration whether it is at MIT or the local community college. Even STEM programs are made up of mostly lecture classes. And obviously there is an upper limit per class/semester but it's probably like 10x the current class size.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#348

Cancelling SAT (especially subject exams) is the stupidest decision I've seen anywhere. Make access more fair? Sure. Cancel it? Plain wrong! How do I know? I'm one of those students who didn't have stellar high school grades, but I excelled in subject exams --- those subjects were genuinely interesting to me (math, science). I didn't find the rest of high school interesting, and I wasn't a nerd nerd studying anything…

> I'm not even counted as "diverse" (because I'm not black or hispanic) despite coming from a muslim family and middle eastern background. I can only select "white", though I'm not white white. Should that even matter for admission purposes?

Absolutely not. Any attributes like race and gender should play no consideration in a fair admissions process. It should not even be public information.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#350

Cancelling SAT (especially subject exams) is the stupidest decision I've seen anywhere. Make access more fair? Sure. Cancel it? Plain wrong! How do I know? I'm one of those students who didn't have stellar high school grades, but I excelled in subject exams --- those subjects were genuinely interesting to me (math, science). I didn't find the rest of high school interesting, and I wasn't a nerd nerd studying anything…

Agree. when we hear about 'promoting opportunity' , what they mean is is we need more of groups X and Y and less Z. Motte and bailey at its finest.
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