Why is the university of California dropping the SAT? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#121

Post by ghaff » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

323454 wrote: post #62

throwaway284534 wrote: post #35

All this gnashing over test scores and booster programs is just showboating. If states really want to fix poor schools they should make school funding occur at the state level, rather than whichever random zip code you’re born into. Seriously, you can’t justify a wealthier neighborhood being entitled to better schools when they’re public institutions receiving state and federal funds. Evening out this funding is the…

This already exists and it doesn't quite work. School funding and outcomes are less well correlated than you might expect. Some of the worst performing schools and districts are also the best funded. The top causal factor appears to be parental involvement: highly involved parents in even poorly funded schools is better than uninvolved parents in well funded schools.

It's very common for urban public schools in particular to have the highest or near-highest funding per student in a state and some of the lowest outcomes in terms of standardized testing and other quantifiable measurements.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#122

Post by LorenPechtel » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #34

mchristen wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downside of that system is that the 10% at one school is definitely not equivalent to the top 10% in another school. When you compare rural school districts to the suburbs of the major cities a kid in the top 10 people at one school might not even rank in the top quarter at another school.

But that's an upside if you're looking to be equitable.

You are making an implicit assumption that groups should be treated equitably. Some of us disagree with that--we feel *individuals* should be treated equitably and see these attempts to treat groups equitably as treating individuals *inequitably*.

Why should my chance of getting into college be hampered by where my parents live or what color skin they gave me??

Aiding one person is inherently discriminating against another.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#123

Post by throwaway894345 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

ZanyProgrammer wrote: post #73

Longform journalism can be reduced to the simple formula of ostensibly liberal journalists writing pieces that appeal to conservatives.

I think you have it backwards. Standardized testing was a liberal policy to promote egalitarianism and civil rights, and it was historically opposed by conservatives. Liberals persuaded conservatives that standardized testing was a Good Thing, but as with segregation, opposition to mixed-race relationships, and general race essentialism, leftists are copying right-most folks in opposing standardized testing. It's not "liberals appealing to conservatives".

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#124

Post by pmoriarty » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

walkedaway wrote: post #11

Thomas Sowell has broken this down very well over the last 50 years. https://www.hoover.org/research/affirmative-action-around-wo... https://www.commentary.org/articles/thomas-sowell-2/affirmat... And of course the Bible on the subject: https://www.amazon.com/Discrimination-Disparities-Thomas-Sow...

"The Hoover Institution, officially the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution, and Peace, is a conservative American public policy institution and research institution that promotes personal and economic liberty, free enterprise, and limited government."

Not surprisingly, Sowell's article is against affirmative action.

While I was reading it, I was also looking out for anything that might distinguish Sowell as one of "the top 5 intellectuals alive" and saw absolutely nothing. It just seemed like another random article with absolutely nothing special about it.

If there is some evidence that he's so brilliant, it'd be great if someone could point it out.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#125

Post by lostcolony » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:01 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #90

lostcolony wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not gaming, per se, but it definitely is a privilege based thing. Getting into an advanced class generally means you already know the material that would be in the normal class (taking trig the year everyone else is taking geometry, for instance). How did you get to where you already knew that material? Well, you were either in the advanced class the year before, or, you already learned the material outside of c…

> . How did you already learn the material outside of class? Better education at home. You are basically saying if someone is more educated, that they will do better in education. Yes, that's the point. The more time and effort someone spends in their education, the better they will do in education.

No. I am explicitly pointing out that even if you learn everything taught in class 100%, and get perfect grades in it, you may not be eligible for some advanced classes. It requires outside investment. And then the advanced classes give you a leg up in terms of college admissions if GPA is a guaranteed entry point.

That means the grade inflation of AP classes just serves as an indirect proxy for money, rather than a reasonable consideration for class performance, knowledge, aptitude, or any such thing.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#126

Post by zozbot234 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

justaman wrote: post #98

seriousquestion wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thomas Sowell is easily in the top 5 intellectuals alive, and yet most people are barely aware of him and his work. Why? I genuinely don't understand why he is so ignored.

The left doesn't like a black man with right-wing ideas so he doesn't appear in mainstream avenues which are typically moderated by the left.

Sowell doesn't advocate for "right-wing" ideas. He's a moderate classical liberal, which is generally described as a centrist position.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#127

Post by rootusrootus » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

LorenPechtel wrote: post #122

rootusrootus wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's an upside if you're looking to be equitable.

You are making an implicit assumption that groups should be treated equitably. Some of us disagree with that--we feel *individuals* should be treated equitably and see these attempts to treat groups equitably as treating individuals *inequitably*. Why should my chance of getting into college be hampered by where my parents live or what color skin they gave me?? Aiding one person is inherently discriminating against a…

It's all a hack job to try and work around the fact that we haven't yet figured out a good objective measurement. Things like SAT do the same in reverse, aid the wealthy students at the expense of the poor ones. It's not an easy problem.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#128

Post by jlangemeier » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

zzt123 wrote: post #111

jlangemeier wrote: post #93

Higher Ed Number cruncher here (who also read the report, which apparently was a big deal to the author since they cited the page count - and many of their arguments hinge on you taking their word for it and not reading at least the exec summary yourself - which is only 8 pages): So, fun thing about the actual study that the author references... the committee actually __DIDN'T__ tell UC regents to not get rid of the…

Ah. So when the article says that by percentage, white students are underrepresented, that’s because the denominator for the student body population includes all students (thus also international and out of state students), rather than just in-state California students? Tricky article!

There is a chance; but more than likely they're quietly mixing what they count in the denominator; especially since with the rest of the URM group and whites it seems they are very careful to call out that its comparisons between the high school pipeline and the in-state collegiate pipeline, but aren't as careful when discussing the AAPI pipeline.

Also, it looks like the study is following federal guidelines (IPEDS/NCES) on student groups; so Asian in this context for international students includes everyone from Korea, China, and Japan, down to the Malaysian Peninsula, through India, all the way west to the Arabian Peninsula (you know, like about 50% of the world population, no biggie there); so there may be some weird mixing of what's included in the denominator for AAPI students.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#129

Post by LorenPechtel » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

tornato7 wrote: post #85

Aperocky wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why lottery are used so much in official context. Instead of the best, you select randomly and hoping RNGesus is on your side. I agree about the threshold, but how about using other criterias instead of RNG.

You mean like, read the student's application and use critical thinking to evaluate whether they're a good fit for the school based on their essays and individual accomplishments? Say it ain't so!

In other words, use subjective criteria that allow them to slip discrimination in under the radar.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#130

Post by jessaustin » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

It's possible that dropping standardized tests will have the demographic effects that TFA fears, but it isn't certain. Standardized tests aren't the only reason that Asian-Americans are "over"-represented and other groups are "under"-represented. Another reason is that Asian-Americans are good students. Standardized test scores are not the only indicator of that.

Of course, the people who have decided to drop these tests claim to want some sort of demographic change. As long as California public universities have a limited number of open seats, that will hurt some groups if it helps others. Personally I hope that this doesn't just turn into helping whites at the expense of Asians, but that isn't impossible.