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Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#321

Post by ajsnigrutin »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #299
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't this be fixed earlier, and not after they get the lower scores? Equal opportunity is ok, but equal outcome is really shitty for kids of other groups who work hard and lose their spots due to the color of their skin. > Note that communist societies had the analogous problem; whenever they implemented standardized testing, class enemies filled the ranks of top scorers. Meh, we were lucky, we were the "3rd wor…

> Shouldn't this be fixed earlier, and not after they get the lower scores? There is no point earlier than when they get the lower scores. The performance gap is apparent at all ages where performance can be measured at all.

But why fix then? Will the performance gap vanish when they get accepted by an university (even if someone else from some other group, wouldn't get accepted with the same score)?

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#322

Post by ejstronge »

kart23 wrote: post #295

The article makes no mention of the lawsuit that was brought against the UC system. They ended up settling, with the UC system agreeing to stop using the SAT for the next 5 years. I think the lawsuit had a lot more influence on the decision than most people think. https://www.sfchronicle.com/education/article/Judge-bars-Uni... https://www.sfchronicle.com/local/article/UC-settles-student...

> The article makes no mention of the lawsuit that was brought against the UC system.

The article very clearly references the lawsuit: "Do the tests prevent low-income Black and Latino students from getting college degrees? This is the charge of a lawsuit filed in 2019 and settled by the university in May"

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#323

Post by BitwiseFool »

ypzhang2 wrote: post #314
BitwiseFool wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University Presidents and Trustees have this bizarre fixation on rankings. I have no clue why, especially considering the fact that that composition of the top 100 is fairly stable. Rarely does a university experience a big swing, up or down. Most universities are never going to dethrone the top 20, no matter how hard they try. And it's not like they are in desperate need for enrollment either.

It’s not really bizarre at all. Parents and therefore students care about rankings, and it directly leads to enrollment, donations, and talent attraction. There might not be changes in overall rankings but individual college or program rankings do change substantially. The administration will all profess a desire not to be so beholden but it’s part of the game so to speak, you have to play. Source: current board memb…

>"individual college or program rankings do change substantially."

I hadn't considered that. Good insight.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#324

Post by mcguire »

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

"As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in “liberal” California."

While I (as a graduate of UT Austin) agree with most of your comment, I would like to know why you believe Texas' tax policies are progressive?

(Texas does not have an income tax, but does have (very high) property taxes. A resident of Texas with a large income but a small real-estate footprint pays relatively few taxes (which is why many wealthy individuals choose Texas as their state of residence) while an average homeowner, whose house is the largest asset, pays a greater relative tax rate.)

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#325

Post by visarga »

gedy wrote: post #120
Causality1 wrote: post #74

Aligning enrollment with state demographics would require cutting the share of those students by almost two-thirds. My best friend growing up was Korean. I saw firsthand the amount of effort he put into his studies. Why should we allow any institution to invalidate his work because our culture produces lazier, dumber students? Why should we artificially prop up patterns of thought and behavior that have negative effe…

From the article: "People in power today would much rather do something that seems to promote “equity” than make an evidence-based choice that could lead to accusations of racism. This is the kind of infuriating policy decision that looks like it is going to help poor, minority students but will actually harm them."

Removes the motive to excel for all groups of students, why strive when you get accepted by quota instead of test score?

It's how communist countries allocate admissions and jobs, what mattered most was not merit, but collusion to the party. So there was no reason to try to be very good in any field.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#326

Post by rdtwo »

rootusrootus wrote: post #162
analog31 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I lived in Texas, no middle class family sent their kids to public schools.

That's a hell of an indictment of the local schools. Where I live (Portland, Oregon suburbs) most middle/upper middle class families send their kids to public school.

Idk Seattle for example is liberal as hell but 25% go to private schools. Likely because equity goals are not good for non target groups

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#327

Post by lostcolony »

vt100 wrote: post #142
lostcolony wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I am explicitly pointing out that even if you learn everything taught in class 100%, and get perfect grades in it, you may not be eligible for some advanced classes. It requires outside investment. And then the advanced classes give you a leg up in terms of college admissions if GPA is a guaranteed entry point. That means the grade inflation of AP classes just serves as an indirect proxy for money, rather than a…

The "outside investment" is just time and effort. There is free access to information via public libraries, the internet, youtube, mathworld, etc.

Yeah, if kids all have equal time outside of school (because poor kids have the same workloads at home as rich kids), equal access to resources (because poor kids have equal access to computers and internet access as rich kids), and we're relying solely on the kids motivation (rather than parents who can supply time to engage with their kids education, unlike the kids whose parents are working multiple jobs just to make ends meet).

If all that's true, then yeah, it's just the kids' choice of how they spend their time and effort, and NOT a proxy for wealth. But I don't think all of that is true.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#328

Post by fridif »

shawndrost wrote: post #282
fridif wrote: post #192

Don't understand the hate for the SAT. Where I went to school, students would just beg their teachers for better grades and it literally worked. I did average on my SAT compared to my ex-gf in college (top 30 US school) but I ran a 3.8 in college compared to her being a C student. Doesn't matter anyway because none of the stuff I learned in college is used in my daily job as a java developer.

I can't point to something better than the SAT, but I can tell you what people don't like about it. SATs correlate with demographics in ways that conflict with the concept that merit is evenly distributed among student demographics.

But like, I'm not a good soccer player at all and I don't harbor a belief that I should be placed on a soccer team to the exclusion of others who are much better (as opposed to just marginally better).

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#329

Post by zeteo »

fridif wrote: post #192

Don't understand the hate for the SAT. Where I went to school, students would just beg their teachers for better grades and it literally worked. I did average on my SAT compared to my ex-gf in college (top 30 US school) but I ran a 3.8 in college compared to her being a C student. Doesn't matter anyway because none of the stuff I learned in college is used in my daily job as a java developer.

The fact is that requiring the SAT leads to worse educational outcomes for Black and Latinx students. You can close your eyes to it all you want and say "but I don't see how that happens, they don't ask you skin color on the test!". That doesn't change the reality on the ground. We need a better system than the SAT as the gatekeeper to higher education. And yes, maybe UC doesn't have the perfect replacement. But at least they're trying.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#330

Post by umvi »

> If we were to think about this assertion rationally instead of emotionally, we would have to face what California has done: consigned its most vulnerable students to some of the worst K–12 schools in America

...assuming a given school is responsible for 100% of its students' SAT scores. In reality parents are responsible for at least 50% of a kid's performance in school and so even if you put low income students into gold-plated schools they would still underperform because they lack a strong family life outside of school (i.e. educated, non single, motivational parents) that would have prepared them.

Take a truant kid from Baltimore and put them in the finest high school in America and they would still fail because the problem is the family life enabling truancy, not how much money the school has.

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