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SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

wwwnc.cdc.gov

171–180 of 292 posts

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s more interesting is that 0/6 of the miners who had natural immunity were re-infected. That points to natural immunity preventing spread. The fact that vaccinated individuals don’t stop transmission means that there is no “public good” from getting vaccinated, it’s solely for personal benefit. Vaccine mandates or checking for vaccination status are pointless because of this.

> there is no “public good” from getting vaccinated, it’s solely for personal benefit. Even if your other claims were correct, the conclusion still wouldn’t be. Severe cases put massive strain on the health care system.

If the health care system needs to die so that people can go back to living, it seems like a good trade.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many young people have still a low chance of severe course of the disease but they are pushed to get vaccinated. My issue with the disease is not the severe course, which some people are pretty well protected from, but the lasting tissue and organ damage going thru the infection with or without a vaccine. I yet have to see a study showing that vaccines prevent such damage. We will have huge epidemics of CVDs after th…

It is possible that covid gives you brain damage even if you have mild symptoms https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-19-survivors-gray-matt... Not sure if vaccines prevent any of this. They surely prevent damage by reducing infection rates in fully vaccinated, but not sure if they can save you from damage, same way they are saving you from death if you contract the virus anyways. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1…

My point is that many restrictions are removed for fully-vaccinated people, i.e. the exposure of these people will increase, i.e. the chance of getting the infection, even if it doesn't take you to the hospital, greatly increases. Even if it's a small percentage, this means many people will get lasting damage. To me, vaccination status should not mean you can take your face mask off - first, you can still get stick, and, second, you can still bridge two sick people even better as you're less likely to show symptoms when you still carry the virus and exhale it without the mask.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#173
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely untrue. The reservoir of selfish unvaccinated individuals is what is providing a place for Covid to hide and mutate. Vax critics were silenced and ridiculed because they are dangerous deceivers who need to be called out and held to account for the consequences of their lies.

It's not selfish to decline a medical procedure one thinks is unlikely to benefit oneself. Furthermore, it's malpractice for a doctor to advise a patient to undergo a medical procedure that is not more likely than not to benefit that specific patient . Your attitude is what's dangerous.

Sorry but no it is selfish - that is the definition of selfish. 'It won't benefit me; it will benefit the whole of society but I don't give a shit about them so I'm not going to' is the most selfish viewpoint you can have.

I could understand if there was a significant risk of negative consequences to the individual but there aren't.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#174
post #122
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very likely. And has already been said by various critics already months ago. But these people were silenced or ridiculed, because it apparently was already decided the vaccines need to be sold.

Completely untrue. The reservoir of selfish unvaccinated individuals is what is providing a place for Covid to hide and mutate. Vax critics were silenced and ridiculed because they are dangerous deceivers who need to be called out and held to account for the consequences of their lies.

So far, the "reservoir of selfish unvaccinated individuals" that the virus has mutated in is people who literally could not get vaccinated because there weren't enough vaccines available. The most important variants so far have showed up in the UK before any vaccines were approved, South Africa during their vaccine clinical trials (rendering the vaccine they were planning on using effectively useless), and India which is just too big to vaccinate quickly at current production levels.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mRNA vaccines are not "adequate": they are being treated by governments as if they aren't working whilst also being significantly more dangerous than every other vaccine programme out there by a long way, even according to the CDC's own rather unreliable VAERS data. Look at the graph here and repeat that these vaccines are adequate: https://swprs.org/us-vaccine-deaths-increasing-rapidly/ "the human population, as…

Re 2. Which programs? Not even polio vaccinations worked to eradicate the virus completely, and these came the closest. Much less BCG or variola (pox). Viruses like flu and coronaviruses, nigh impossible to eradicate. 1 and 3, sure. And mRNA vaccine is not particularly more dangerous than any other type. The cost-benefit is strongly on the side of vaccination there.

Why do you think smallpox wasn't eliminated by vaccines?

mRNA vaccine is not particularly more dangerous than any other type

I don't understand how that is consistent with the data from the various vaccine surveillance systems which show clearly that it's drastically more dangerous. It's also inconsistent with anecdotes that I've been hearing from people around me, of whom a disturbingly large number say that the vaccines made them very sick (i.e. they describe symptoms similar to that of COVID itself).

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> imperfect vaccines can cause selective pressure which enhances the fitness of highly virulent pathogens The number of ways in which we undertaking a natural experiment in viral evolution has been top-of-mind for me as well. But the greater issue in my view is not that the vaccines are imperfect. All vaccines are somewhat imperfect. On its own, I the mRNA vaccines were probably entirely adequate. The problem is that…

The mRNA vaccines are not "adequate": they are being treated by governments as if they aren't working whilst also being significantly more dangerous than every other vaccine programme out there by a long way, even according to the CDC's own rather unreliable VAERS data. Look at the graph here and repeat that these vaccines are adequate: https://swprs.org/us-vaccine-deaths-increasing-rapidly/ "the human population, as…

Your claims are pretty extraordinary and demand extraordinary evidence. How exactly are they not adequate? How are they being treated as if they aren't working? How are they dangerous?

The one source you provide is embarrassingly poorly founded. It takes garbage input sources, obscures even the meager data in them and then decreases the quality of the claims even further with misleading representations. Here's just one example to show explicitly what I'm taking about with my claim. "A recent analysis by researchers at Queen Mary University in London found that even in senior citizens, about 85% of deaths reported to VAERS were definitively, likely or possibly caused by the vaccine." That language implies heavily "85% scary!" when in fact that the claim by the paper is "15% were confirmed to have nothing to do with the vaccine" and as you read further their results show even less than that. I'm just going to go in order through my notes from a critical read of the paper for more background, these are not prioritized or meant to be hard exclusion criteria on their own but rather straws on the camels back. The project this paper was published under is not specialized in this area, making me suspicious that they are qualified for this analysis at all. "PAMBAYESIAN is a 3-year EPSRC funded project to develop a new generation of intelligent medical decision support systems based on Bayesian networks. The project focuses on home-based and wearable real-time monitoring systems for chronic conditions including rheumatoid arthritis, diabetes in pregnancy and atrial fibrillation. The project has the potential to improve the well-being of millions of people." Looking through through the credentials and publication history of all the authors seems to confirm that they may not have the relavant foundation for this work. There is absolutely no statistical analysis anywhere in the paper and the authors acknowledge their data set is what I would call almost but not quite entirely useless "This process is ongoing, as there are 1644 deaths in the dataset that have been reported in patients who had recently received their first or second COVID-19 vaccination, and over 28,000 serious adverse events that did not result in death. This interim results paper presents information on the first 250 reported deaths that have been reviewed and coded by our team. Obviously, these results cannot be generalised as the sample is heavily biased - these were all people vaccinated very early in the programme when only the elderly, those with significant or chronic health conditions and frontline health service staff were being vaccinated." And finally the actual claim that is attempted to be made by the paper authors is "But there are some important findings. that the only patients where a vaccine allergic reaction be ruled out as contributing to death were 34 (14%) who were all either already bedridden, at end of life, and expected to die anyway from a serious comorbid like lung cancer or were on palliative hospice care. We also found that for at least 13 of the 250 deaths (5%), a vaccine allergic reaction was indisputably the most likely direct cause for the symptoms and patient outcomes described." They found 13 very ill people whose deaths, in a third party's interpretation of case notes, were contributed to by an allergic reaction to receipt of the vaccine. 5% of the most delicate people had a normal reaction to receiving any vaccine and because of their extreme poor health or their quality of care were not able to be helped with standard intervention for such a reaction. Shocking stuff that.

I think you should take a serious critical look at this data source swprs.org and how much of things you think you know have been influenced by it.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#177

As other commenters have noted, this case study further supports the widespread observations that COVID-19 vaccines reduce the chance of severe (symptomatic) illness but do not necessarily prevent infection and transmission. The authors of this study conjecture that the unvaccinated asymptomatic “patient 40” may have been the source of the infections seen in the other fully vaccinated patients - however this was a mi…

> imperfect vaccines can cause selective pressure which enhances the fitness of highly virulent pathogens The number of ways in which we undertaking a natural experiment in viral evolution has been top-of-mind for me as well. But the greater issue in my view is not that the vaccines are imperfect. All vaccines are somewhat imperfect. On its own, I the mRNA vaccines were probably entirely adequate. The problem is that…

Becoming infected also doesn't completely protect you from becoming infected again, 1% of patients who had severe covid get infected again in just 3.5 months. [0]

So even if vaccines don't prevent the transmission or protect from infection worse than being severely infected then you might treat them just as a way of making you survive your first infection so that first infection can protect you better from further infections. If we didn't have or use vaccines we'd eventually end up in the same place with nearly all people eventually contracting covid at least once, just with a little more damage.

Research on covid is not done. We need therapies for acute covid. We need a way to treat and prevent long covid.

[0] https://www.pharmacytimes.com/view/study-covid-19-reinfectio...

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#178

As other commenters have noted, this case study further supports the widespread observations that COVID-19 vaccines reduce the chance of severe (symptomatic) illness but do not necessarily prevent infection and transmission. The authors of this study conjecture that the unvaccinated asymptomatic “patient 40” may have been the source of the infections seen in the other fully vaccinated patients - however this was a mi…

All vaccines are imperfect. The mRNA vaccines are relatively effective.

The strains that are spreading were first detected well before widespread vaccination.

Widespread vaccination can increase the relative fitness of an existing strain of course, if it more or less eradicates less infectious strains.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. First off, we still haven't had the level of death that we had in 1918, and almost certainly won't. Second, the narrative of vaccinated individuals being major spreaders of this disease is false. The virus is evolving due to mutations occurring while hopping from one unvaccinated person to another, full stop.

The UK now has a similar test positivity rate to what it had in November 2020 yet a hugely vaccinated population. If the vaccinated aren't spreading it then you're suggesting that the unvaccinated have become drastically more infectious for no apparent reason and in ways that don't show up in contract tracing data. I think the alternative explanations are more likely to be correct: the vaccine is actually not a vacci…

The unvaccinated population is not uniformly distributed though. The vaccines is not rated for the age younger than 12 yet, and it will still take a while to roll it out in the younger age groups. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if most vaccine refusers are part of groups who collectively refuse to vaccinate. We know from measles outbreaks that this is often the case. Finally, most vaccines achieve their maximum effect only if both doses are given. If only one is given, all bets are off.

> Also, COVID tests don't actually detect COVID or even SARS-CoV-2, they detect RNA debris from destroyed SARS-CoV-2. Thus it's expected that if someone's body fights off the virus immediately if they're exposed to it, they will still test positive.

Slightly untrue. The particles gathered from infected and spreading persons are fully functional, by definition. To distinguish these cares from immune people, one would have to determine the percentage of viable virus particles. Hard to tell whether that's even feasible at scale. It's not too bad though. At worst this causes a higher than expected false-positive rate.

Re: SARS-CoV-2 Gamma variant infected 16 fully Pfizer vaccinated Guiana gold miners

#180
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) All current variations of concern come from mostly unvaccinated countries. Apparently there's a serious issue with immunocompromised individuals and the vaccines may help prevent that: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-variants-ma... 2) We can see with SARS and MERS that a more deadly form may actually reduce overall mortality, since the virus can't spread as effectively. However, we haven't had thi…

> All current variations of concern come from mostly unvaccinated countries. Isn't it more significant not where they emerge (which is by random mutation) but where they do well? And don't they seem to do well in countries that have vaccinated more people? Is it even particularly easy to say where a variant originated? Could the mutations happen multiple times independently?

The Delta variant is a humanitarian crisis in less vaccinated India and a moderate public health concern in countries with higher rates of vaccination.
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