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The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

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Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#141

Post by paulcole »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #129
acover wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the assumption. I don't agree with it - dying seems like a pretty rational choice for some people.

Like who? Of the people who can feel normal emotions like happiness without some great interference, and have reasonably functional bodies, (and aren't like a prisoner of war) what does a candidate for rationally wanting to die look like?

Honestly, me. I run ultra-marathons, I have a decent job, I have Type 1 diabetes (not terminal obviously), I’m about 40 years old.

If given a guaranteed to work and painless option of suicide, I’d plan to not work for a few years, drain my savings, and call it good.

Sure there are things I like and find happiness in. But what’s the point? I’ve had about enough.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#142

Post by acover »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #129
acover wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the assumption. I don't agree with it - dying seems like a pretty rational choice for some people.

Like who? Of the people who can feel normal emotions like happiness without some great interference, and have reasonably functional bodies, (and aren't like a prisoner of war) what does a candidate for rationally wanting to die look like?

It seems like a matter of taste. When does a miserable life stop being worth the moments of happiness? What is a reasonably functional body? Where is that line and why are you the one who gets to draw it?

Your current position sounds like no matter how miserable or how fleeting the moments of happiness are a person should just grin and bear it. They don't want to, but you want them to.

I agree there are clearly situations where a person only temporarily wants to die. These situations could be characterized as irrational.

For me personally, it's arthritis. I'm slowly losing functionality and interest in things I used to enjoy because the pain changes the calculus. It's not unbearable now but it's degenerative so it's only going to get worse.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#143

Post by spywaregorilla »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #108
anonymouse008 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's just say I get really concerned about my fairly stable, committed household when I get therapy and dating app ads...

The targeting isn't all that good. We note the dramatic hits, we don't note the far larger number of misses. I used to get a lot of dating and foreign-matchmaking ads stemming from the fact I like chess. Never mind that I have been off the market since before there was a www.

> I used to get a lot of dating and foreign-matchmaking ads stemming from the fact I like chess.

How would you know this?

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#144

Post by dannyphantom »

pmoriarty wrote: post #34

In "Why do people die by suicide" , Dr Paul Thomlinson goes over the research on predicting suicide.[1] First, he talks about a well supported model called Joiner's Model, based on research which shows that people who are most likely to commit suicide have all three of these factors: - Thwarted belongingness ("I am alone") - Perceived burdensomeness ("I am a burden") - Ability to commit suicide ("I am not afraid to d…

It's always interesting to find clinical observations for something you struggle with; you somewhat have to remove yourself from your own mind when learning why your brain is manifesting these types of thoughts and feelings.

"IS PATH WARM" really personifies the feelings.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#145

Post by Dylan16807 »

paulcole wrote: post #141
Dylan16807 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like who? Of the people who can feel normal emotions like happiness without some great interference, and have reasonably functional bodies, (and aren't like a prisoner of war) what does a candidate for rationally wanting to die look like?

Honestly, me. I run ultra-marathons, I have a decent job, I have Type 1 diabetes (not terminal obviously), I’m about 40 years old. If given a guaranteed to work and painless option of suicide, I’d plan to not work for a few years, drain my savings, and call it good. Sure there are things I like and find happiness in. But what’s the point? I’ve had about enough.

You don't think you could figure out a guaranteed painless suicide method if you had years of prep time?

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#146

Post by Dylan16807 »

acover wrote: post #142
Dylan16807 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like who? Of the people who can feel normal emotions like happiness without some great interference, and have reasonably functional bodies, (and aren't like a prisoner of war) what does a candidate for rationally wanting to die look like?

It seems like a matter of taste. When does a miserable life stop being worth the moments of happiness? What is a reasonably functional body? Where is that line and why are you the one who gets to draw it? Your current position sounds like no matter how miserable or how fleeting the moments of happiness are a person should just grin and bear it. They don't want to, but you want them to. I agree there are clearly situa…

Okay, I should have worded myself better. I was thinking of that kind of chronic pain as along the same lines of terminal illness, but I didn't make that clear.

So you just go into the "assisted suicide before illness gets too bad" bucket, not the people who "just want to die".

> Your current position sounds like no matter how miserable or how fleeting the moments of happiness are a person should just grin and bear it. They don't want to, but you want them to.

It's more like: if you exclude mental illness and intense suffering caused by physical illness, how many people still have lives so miserable they'd rationally want suicide, and how many of those would remain miserable if given a better environment to live in?

And you're reading too far into me having a position here. When I ask what that looks like, it's a legitimate question.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#147

Post by FinanceAnon »

jlos wrote: post #138
FinanceAnon wrote: post #66

It's impossible to measure, but I wonder what % of suicides happens because of the culture that we live in. A lot of times when you read about someone commiting suicide it's blamed on that individual or their mental health - but is that really the root issue? How many of the suicides wouldn't happen if society was set up in a different way?

The is basically Durkheims conclusion: suicide is the outcome of sociological, rather than psychological, forces. [0] There is an argument that a lot of the mass shootings are actually better classified as a type of suicide under this model as well [1] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_(Durkheim_book) [1] https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2019/08/mass-shoo...

Thanks for the links, they are very interesting!

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#148

Post by LorenPechtel »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #143
LorenPechtel wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The targeting isn't all that good. We note the dramatic hits, we don't note the far larger number of misses. I used to get a lot of dating and foreign-matchmaking ads stemming from the fact I like chess. Never mind that I have been off the market since before there was a www.

> I used to get a lot of dating and foreign-matchmaking ads stemming from the fact I like chess. How would you know this?

Because the site had nothing but my age and the fact that it was a chess site to go on. The ads did not show any of the targeting you typically see.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#149

Post by LorenPechtel »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #129
acover wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the assumption. I don't agree with it - dying seems like a pretty rational choice for some people.

Like who? Of the people who can feel normal emotions like happiness without some great interference, and have reasonably functional bodies, (and aren't like a prisoner of war) what does a candidate for rationally wanting to die look like?

Medical conditions can make life too unpleasant without being terminal.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#150

Post by paulcole »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #145
paulcole wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, me. I run ultra-marathons, I have a decent job, I have Type 1 diabetes (not terminal obviously), I’m about 40 years old. If given a guaranteed to work and painless option of suicide, I’d plan to not work for a few years, drain my savings, and call it good. Sure there are things I like and find happiness in. But what’s the point? I’ve had about enough.

You don't think you could figure out a guaranteed painless suicide method if you had years of prep time?

I mean obviously I could with near (but not quite) 100% confidence. But it’s like saying couldn’t a weirdo rich guy from South Africa figure out self-driving if he had years of prep time. Even if he does, it’s going to be a little nerve wracking getting in the car.
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