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The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

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Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#111

Post by lazerpants »

morpheos137 wrote: post #68
MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of suicide is to end suffering, not commit to a happy predictable retirement. If you ever have a moment in your life that causes you to contemplate it, you'll understand. Otherwise, I personally don't believe people like you should be making decisions for those people who do. You have no understanding of what it feels like to consider that as actually being a rational thought.

Nothing about life is rational. I believe I "contemplate" suicide frequently but I have no inclination to do it because what good would it do me? Suicide is self-murder no matter how we sugar coat it. If we reach a point as a society where murdering ones self is condoned why wouldn't that make murder of others less severe? If life is not sacred then it seems to me that murder becomes more like a property crime.

Have you had the opportunity to try ketamine treatments for chronic pain? I know they have been highly successful for some people.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#113

Post by notdang »

saiya-jin wrote: post #95
Lammy wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is illegal to kill oneself because it deprives the state of a taxpayer, and the state will not tolerate theft of its human resources.

Its way more primitive than that - christian moral code prohibits suicide as those will end up in hell. Then not-so-small part of population feels entitled to project their own righteous path unto rest of humanity while even feeling great about doing that 'in accordance to god's wishes'. Next thing you know, any abortion is illegal, heck in places like Poland even basic human rights are violated by exactly this kind…

Outlawing suicide is a lot older than Christianity. Aristotle was writing that suicide is an act of injustice toward state. And most probably he was not the first one to state that.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#114

Post by acover »

paulcole wrote: post #106
LorenPechtel wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's looking at mental illness suicide. The terminally ill ones are more like the people who jump from a burning building--life has legitimately become more painful than death. That's not something a psychiatrist can change.

I always wonder about a 3rd group. Those without mental illness or terminal illness who just want to die. Or is the assumption that someone who wants to die but isn’t terminally ill must be mentally ill?

That is the assumption. I don't agree with it - dying seems like a pretty rational choice for some people.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#115

Post by ridgeguy »

easterncalculus wrote: post #38
underseacables wrote: post #2

Robert Lowell once said that if humans had access to a button that would kill us instantly and painlessly, we would all press it sooner or later. I think this explains suicide better: For most, it’s an irrational act done in the spur of the moment. What I think is more interesting is when suicide is done as a rational act with planning, and consideration for others.

I'm not convinced there's anything rational in suicide by definition. Every organ, vessel, and part of your body, especially your brain, is dedicated to keeping you alive for as long as possible. If it makes you feel the need to end your life, by definition it is not working. A lot of bad things can happen to you in a lifetime, but death is the worst, without a doubt. To feel the need to inflict it upon yourself is t…

> Every organ, vessel, and part of your body, especially your brain, is dedicated to keeping you alive for as long as possible.

On the contrary, I think every part of my body is dedicated to making sure my DNA propagates. But, being conscious, my cognition can overrule the evolutionary imperative. All the more easily if I've reproduced.

And death is not necessarily the worst thing that could happen to me. Search "locked in" illness. Or Alzheimer's. There are many illness states to which I'd find death preferable.

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#116

Post by acover »

FinanceAnon wrote: post #66

It's impossible to measure, but I wonder what % of suicides happens because of the culture that we live in. A lot of times when you read about someone commiting suicide it's blamed on that individual or their mental health - but is that really the root issue? How many of the suicides wouldn't happen if society was set up in a different way?

I think it's part of who we are.

Suicides happen in tribal cultures - https://www.jstor.org/stable/658295

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#117

Post by giantg2 »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #107
giantg2 wrote: post #54

'Poté explained that the basic mechanism is comparable to the process “used in lie-detector tests, like you see in the movies.”' And yet polygraphs are known to be unreliable, to the point that they are generally not admissible in court. It would probably be better marketing if they don't imply that their product is comparable to an qn existing tech that is unreliable.

The basic problem with lie detectors is that if you know what you're doing you can trick the machine. Also, people tend to react to the sensitive questions, producing false positives. While they aren't used for it they can in certain circumstances produce results with an accuracy quite sufficient for the courtroom, and there isn't even any Fifth Amendment problems with the approach: You need things which the criminal…

Is there case law supporting their use? To my knowledge they are not used in court due to accuracy concerns. They are typically used by police in their investigation just to rule out or confirm suspects.

Edit: looks like it varies by state, but most do not allow it.

https://www.brodenmickelsen.com/blog/why-polygraph-tests-are...

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#118

Post by mactrey »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #26
naturalauction wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“All 29 people who survived their suicide attempts off San Francisco’s Golden Gate Bridge have said they regretted their decision as soon as they jumped.” https://ennyman.medium.com/a-lesson-from-29-golden-gate-suic... Sure most suicide attempts aren’t done this way but I think statistics like this showcase how many suicides are irrational on some level. If it was rational then you’d think they wouldn’t immediately r…

Perhaps their regret is a significant contributor to their survival though.

Or perhaps having the experience itself ("I survived the jump") is a significant contributor to their not regretting it.

There could even be multiple mechanisms there: "turns out being that close to death is really scary," or "my survival means there is a higher power looking out for me," or "my life flashing before my eyes made me realize something about my life"...

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#119

Post by ThrowawayP »

naturalauction wrote: post #22
SirFatty wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone can think about killing themselves for months or years before actually doing it.. are you suggesting that is irrational because there wasn't a plan or consideration of others?

“All 29 people who survived their suicide attempts off San Francisco’s Golden Gate Bridge have said they regretted their decision as soon as they jumped.” https://ennyman.medium.com/a-lesson-from-29-golden-gate-suic... Sure most suicide attempts aren’t done this way but I think statistics like this showcase how many suicides are irrational on some level. If it was rational then you’d think they wouldn’t immediately r…

I've seem the "29 people" statistic quoted a few times but I think it's more interesting to look at medical studies about how many people reattempt it after failing the first time:

"Nine out of ten people who attempt suicide and survive will not go on to die by suicide at a later date. This has been well-established in the suicidology literature. A literature review (Owens 2002) summarized 90 studies that have followed over time people who have made suicide attempts that resulted in medical care. Approximately 7% (range: 5-11%) of attempters eventually died by suicide, approximately 23% reattempted nonfatally, and 70% had no further attempts."

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survi...

Re: The undiscovered country: Can suicide be predicted?

#120

Post by over_bridge »

easterncalculus wrote: post #38
underseacables wrote: post #2

Robert Lowell once said that if humans had access to a button that would kill us instantly and painlessly, we would all press it sooner or later. I think this explains suicide better: For most, it’s an irrational act done in the spur of the moment. What I think is more interesting is when suicide is done as a rational act with planning, and consideration for others.

I'm not convinced there's anything rational in suicide by definition. Every organ, vessel, and part of your body, especially your brain, is dedicated to keeping you alive for as long as possible. If it makes you feel the need to end your life, by definition it is not working. A lot of bad things can happen to you in a lifetime, but death is the worst, without a doubt. To feel the need to inflict it upon yourself is t…

Death is a very long way from being the worst thing that can happen. That's why a lot of torture methods are about keeping you alive as long as possible, or doing something horrible and forcing you to live with it. Not to mention illness robbing you of you mind and body, or personal loss making life unbearable.

I personally think of suicide not as a decision to die but rather a decision not to live. No one wants to die but it is very conceivable that one could be in a situation that no longer is worth the effort to sustain. Side note, I do not feel this way now but when younger I certainly felt like being alive wasn't worth the trouble and had to go through a process of convincing myself it was.

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