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U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

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Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#201
post #92

There is so much doubt in this comment section around the validity of the accusations. We have a number of countries putting forward the knowledge they have mutually agreed upon. What is shared is known to a high degree of certainty. Any details that are questionable would not have been shared prematurely.

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." — Dick Cheney, before the US and coalition of the willing invaded Iraq.

Yeah, it turned out to be ISIS.

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt you'll find a credible source - the security services are afterall very good at what they do. It's all circumstantial, but at the time you'd have been hard-pressed to find a single citizen who believed Kelly very conveniently killed himself at just the right time to prevent further damage to the government and their web of lies with the US.

I'm not sure I see what the theory is here. I could understand an argument that Kelly was killed to send a message, but it's hard to see what damage it could have prevented. If anything, his death confirmed the web of lies; the whole thing wouldn't have been a big deal if it were just a question of minor messaging details as the government was claiming.

It wasn't about sending message. The theory is that Kelly could have revealed he was told to fake evidence, and could have provided confirmation of who knew what, and importantly, when.

It was about timing too - it was a critical point for Blair and Bush getting the war they so desired. Keeping in mind there was already huge opposition to the war, proper 1st hand evidence being revealed at that point could well have resulted in Blair having to stand down, and potentially even the British not joining the war. Which of course the US services would not have liked.

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#203
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." — Dick Cheney, before the US and coalition of the willing invaded Iraq.

I'd ask that we be more thoughtful on this and evaluate separate allegations on their own merits. Why do you think invoking Cheney's statement is relevant to this discussion? As an aside, I'm not sure what's more frustrating: Witnessing the Bush administration circa 2001-2004 be called out on these lies, by numerous entities, and still march inexorably toward armed conflict, or... having to witness these lies being u…

To me, it just goes to show that you cannot take on faith or even the evidence provided by the currently speaking government official (whoever that might be at whatever time).

It's a sad position to take, but we have definitely been misled/lied to by gov't officials.

Why is this particular incident any more legit/not-fake than the totally legit/not-fake WMD evidence?

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd ask that we be more thoughtful on this and evaluate separate allegations on their own merits. Why do you think invoking Cheney's statement is relevant to this discussion? As an aside, I'm not sure what's more frustrating: Witnessing the Bush administration circa 2001-2004 be called out on these lies, by numerous entities, and still march inexorably toward armed conflict, or... having to witness these lies being u…

There is more than the most recent Iraq war. There is Vietnam (Gulf of Tonkin) and the Spanish-American War (USS Maine sabotage). Several others. It's not disingenous and it's not discrediting _any_ future allegation, but to appropriately raise the threshold before belief.

Everything you said would be true if today's accusations were a pretext for armed conflict, but I don't believe we've reached that level of escalation. Do you?

Accordingly, I don't find comparison to prior wars helpful for discussion. Obviously opinions here may differ...

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#205
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." — Dick Cheney, before the US and coalition of the willing invaded Iraq.

I'd ask that we be more thoughtful on this and evaluate separate allegations on their own merits. Why do you think invoking Cheney's statement is relevant to this discussion? As an aside, I'm not sure what's more frustrating: Witnessing the Bush administration circa 2001-2004 be called out on these lies, by numerous entities, and still march inexorably toward armed conflict, or... having to witness these lies being u…

I sympathize with your sentiment, but dishonesty in that case is relevant to credibility in this one.

What, besides credibility of the institutions making the allegations, are these allegations' "own merits"?

Agreed that a reflexive "they lie!" position isn't useful, but... trust doesn't seem like a reasonable default either. In the same vein, it would be naive to trust the Chinese NBS to report unflattering economic statistics honestly. Why? Because of past/recent dishonesty.

Whether it's true or not, I don't think the purpose of this announcement is to inform us. It's part of power games with China, laying public groundwork for updating the NATO mission, new departments/funding/laws/etc... That's not a general paranoia. I get this impression from the NATO statement itself.

from P4:

China’s growing influence and international policies can present challenges that we need to address together as an Alliance. We will engage China with a view to defending the security interests of the Alliance. We are increasingly confronted by cyber, hybrid, and other asymmetric threats, including disinformation campaigns, and by the malicious use of ever-more sophisticated emerging and disruptive technologies. Rapid advances in the space domain are affecting our security. The proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and the erosion of the arms control architecture also undermine our collective security.

Promising to engage China, followed by nonspecific cyber, WMD & space threats.

Here is where I might be paranoid, cynical or whatnot. Is defense against cyberattacks the actual goal, or is cyberwarfare just another long term raison d'etre?

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#206

It looks like cyber warfare, as well as espionage, is considered pretty much fair game in geopolitics nowadays. I wonder where the line is drawn that would make it an act of war. In any case, a direct attack from the Chinese government towards it's main trade partners (US, Germany and Japan among them) sounds crazy to me.

I don't think it's crazy at all. We (i.e. the US) use our SIGINT abilities to spy on allies all the time, or at least according to numerous books and leaks. With that said, I'm not sure that the US government considers China an ally.

espionage != cyber warfare

> attack crippled thousands of computers around the world

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that these attacks are just being made up or we don't have evidence who executed them is either willfully ignorant (a google search will provide plenty of evidence) or actively malicious. Tools to fake such attribution and evidence were literally part of the leaked NSA/Equation Group toolkit.

Sure, and we should be willing to entertain skepticism of specific incidents when justified. The idea that there's no such thing as real attribution, that it's always fabricated based on political convenience, is just unproductive nihilism.

[deleted]

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I see what the theory is here. I could understand an argument that Kelly was killed to send a message, but it's hard to see what damage it could have prevented. If anything, his death confirmed the web of lies; the whole thing wouldn't have been a big deal if it were just a question of minor messaging details as the government was claiming.

It wasn't about sending message. The theory is that Kelly could have revealed he was told to fake evidence, and could have provided confirmation of who knew what, and importantly, when. It was about timing too - it was a critical point for Blair and Bush getting the war they so desired. Keeping in mind there was already huge opposition to the war, proper 1st hand evidence being revealed at that point could well have…

The timeline's definitely not right for that. The British had already joined the war; Kelly died 4 months after the invasion.

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's crazy at all. We (i.e. the US) use our SIGINT abilities to spy on allies all the time, or at least according to numerous books and leaks. With that said, I'm not sure that the US government considers China an ally.

espionage != cyber warfare > attack crippled thousands of computers around the world

Technology has a tendency of merging realms. Whether you compromise a system to get information or to cripple it is pretty much a detail.

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#210
post #130

China has been accused of hacking and/or electronic spying by other states. Russia has been accused of hacking and/or electronic spying by other states. North Korea has been accused of hacking and/or electronic spying by other states. And yes, the US and quite a few European states -- and many other countries -- have also been accused of hacking and/or electronic spying by other states[a]. All these governments are p…

If a seemingly insignificant issue is enough to start a war, perhaps the problems run deeper than the tipping point trigger issue.
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