I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#41

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 9:05 PM UTC

jbay808 wrote: post #37

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a very good question. I think in general it is important to realize that a significant amount of "design" work goes in to creating economies. Local, state, and national decisions will lead to certain conditions. How were those decisions made, and under what conditions? For any given place the answer will be different. How does one place compare to another? It is my view that it is perfectly feasible to design eco…

> How did things get the way they became? Is it due to iron wrought natural laws, or historical decisions we could freely agree to change? Reminds me of Scott Alexander's Meditations on Moloch , which also ponders this question. I can't do it justice with just one excerpt, but here's one passage that always stays with me: The reason our current system isn’t a utopia is that it wasn’t designed by humans . Just as you…

Sorry, but this is BS. The course of a river is a direct result of several close-to-deterministic forces and influences. Caesar's Palace, along with "neurobiology, economics, and regulatory regimes" are manifestations of many different forces, a large number of which are subject to individual and social choice-making. The pretense that "neurobiology is destiny", "economics is as immutable as physics" and "regulatory regimes are natural law" is just completely bogus, and the argument is one entirely in favor of the status quo, by the status quo.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#42

Post by throwawayboise » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 9:06 PM UTC

robarr wrote: post #13

ac29 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article, "Most people make between $16.50 and $20 an hour". So, at 84 hours a week (46 normal pay, 38 overtime at 1.5x), thats $1700/week on the low end, or $88k/year. I dont think that excuses the forced overtime and I would absolutely expect severe health and/or mental health issues to result from the overwork. But, these people can quit (and according to the article many do) - I expect the only re…

People with poor formal qualifications or habilities not longer marketable have little choice except double shifts to raise a family. Just imagine being 40 years old, no college or technical education, having only retail work experience.

You still have many options. It is probably true that for a person in that situation, they may not be apparent or seem feasible.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#43

Post by 8note » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #4

knuthsat wrote: post #2

Anyone knows why people decide to do this kind of time consuming work? Is the world getting hard enough that there is no alternative? Whenever I see people working really hard in other parts of the world, especially when the country is filled with other opportunities, I always wonder is it just everyone else that is raising the bar and now the standard is very time consuming work. For example, there's year long touri…

Factories aren’t generally in cities. In a rural town, your job choices may be work at Walmart, one of two factories, or on a farm. The “hard” factory job may be the “best” bet among the choices. The bigger question is usually why don’t people move from a rural location? And the answer is usually “it’s complicated “. Old parents to take care of. It’s familiar. Friends. Maybe own your simple home. Maybe your church is…

Another answer to the bigger question: it costs money to move

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#44

Post by indymike » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #15

ac29 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the article, "Most people make between $16.50 and $20 an hour". So, at 84 hours a week (46 normal pay, 38 overtime at 1.5x), thats $1700/week on the low end, or $88k/year. I dont think that excuses the forced overtime and I would absolutely expect severe health and/or mental health issues to result from the overwork. But, these people can quit (and according to the article many do) - I expect the only re…

They are not making that much as it’s unpaid overtime or “suicide” as they colloquially call it according to the article. Edit: sorry I’m wrong. I read “kills you over time” as “kills your overtime”

Unpaid overtime is highly illegal un the US for hourly workers. That's why tech loves salaried workers so much.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#45

Post by TaylorAlexander » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #29

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a very good question. I think in general it is important to realize that a significant amount of "design" work goes in to creating economies. Local, state, and national decisions will lead to certain conditions. How were those decisions made, and under what conditions? For any given place the answer will be different. How does one place compare to another? It is my view that it is perfectly feasible to design eco…

as nice as that utopia would be, the fundamental flaw with trying to limit working days/hours is that some people will still pour their whole lives into work, which creates an iterated game that pushes the equilibrium for everyone toward working more. there's no practical way to mitigate this powerful, arguably inate, incentive. the other option is actively coercing a daily/weekly work limit, and that not only severe…

> the fundamental flaw with trying to limit working days/hours is that some people will still pour their whole lives into work,

To be clear, I am talking about a voluntary system. No one would be prevented from working more, it just wouldn't be necessary to survive. I love to work pretty much all the time, though only some of that is hours I am billing to my employer.

EDIT: I quickly rewrote my original comment after posting, but I do see one quoted reply got in before the change. Just wanted to add this note about the change.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#46

Post by intricatedetail » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

knuthsat wrote: post #2

Anyone knows why people decide to do this kind of time consuming work? Is the world getting hard enough that there is no alternative? Whenever I see people working really hard in other parts of the world, especially when the country is filled with other opportunities, I always wonder is it just everyone else that is raising the bar and now the standard is very time consuming work. For example, there's year long touri…

I think it is also interesting why people agree to work for the fraction of value they create for the company. Somehow this kind of suffering and exploitation is socially acceptable. Companies make billions and workers struggle to put food on the table. I think governments should focus on companies avoiding tax rather than taxing them though workers (as workers suffer and yield is fraction of what companies should be paying) and we should look at tying minimum wage to company revenue (with a nationwide minimum, so that worker always gets paid a wage they can live off).

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#47

Post by hallway_monitor » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 9:15 PM UTC

brianwawok wrote: post #4

knuthsat wrote: post #2

Anyone knows why people decide to do this kind of time consuming work? Is the world getting hard enough that there is no alternative? Whenever I see people working really hard in other parts of the world, especially when the country is filled with other opportunities, I always wonder is it just everyone else that is raising the bar and now the standard is very time consuming work. For example, there's year long touri…

Factories aren’t generally in cities. In a rural town, your job choices may be work at Walmart, one of two factories, or on a farm. The “hard” factory job may be the “best” bet among the choices. The bigger question is usually why don’t people move from a rural location? And the answer is usually “it’s complicated “. Old parents to take care of. It’s familiar. Friends. Maybe own your simple home. Maybe your church is…

The best thing about moving to remote work is that it will enable people to live in these smaller communities while having the increased income of the city. I hope this will bring more money back to local economies and revitalize rural areas.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#48

Post by hallway_monitor » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 9:17 PM UTC

intricatedetail wrote: post #46

knuthsat wrote: post #2

Anyone knows why people decide to do this kind of time consuming work? Is the world getting hard enough that there is no alternative? Whenever I see people working really hard in other parts of the world, especially when the country is filled with other opportunities, I always wonder is it just everyone else that is raising the bar and now the standard is very time consuming work. For example, there's year long touri…

I think it is also interesting why people agree to work for the fraction of value they create for the company. Somehow this kind of suffering and exploitation is socially acceptable. Companies make billions and workers struggle to put food on the table. I think governments should focus on companies avoiding tax rather than taxing them though workers (as workers suffer and yield is fraction of what companies should be…

I'm generally a libertarian but I think current corporate law is insane. This seems like a reasonable starting point, maybe along with a policy requiring giving each employee a stake in the company.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#49

Post by nemothekid » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 9:19 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #45

clairity wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as nice as that utopia would be, the fundamental flaw with trying to limit working days/hours is that some people will still pour their whole lives into work, which creates an iterated game that pushes the equilibrium for everyone toward working more. there's no practical way to mitigate this powerful, arguably inate, incentive. the other option is actively coercing a daily/weekly work limit, and that not only severe…

> the fundamental flaw with trying to limit working days/hours is that some people will still pour their whole lives into work, To be clear, I am talking about a voluntary system. No one would be prevented from working more, it just wouldn't be necessary to survive. I love to work pretty much all the time, though only some of that is hours I am billing to my employer. EDIT: I quickly rewrote my original comment after…

>I see no contradiction or flaw. What I desire is a world where it is possible for any person to survive working 20 hours a week with a couple months off.

What GP is arguing is that is achieved by fixing the pay distribution, not by limiting hours. If you only limit hours but don't fix the pay problem you create perverse incentives where people have to work undocumented "overtime" or face the threat that they will be replaced by someone who will or where people who want to work overtime face punitive punishments if they do so.

Re: I'm a Frito-Lay Factory Worker. I Work 12-Hour Days, 7 Days a Week

#50

Post by clairity » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 9:19 PM UTC

Frost1x wrote: post #38

clairity wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as nice as that utopia would be, the fundamental flaw with trying to limit working days/hours is that some people will still pour their whole lives into work, which creates an iterated game that pushes the equilibrium for everyone toward working more. there's no practical way to mitigate this powerful, arguably inate, incentive. the other option is actively coercing a daily/weekly work limit, and that not only severe…

>some people will still pour their whole lives into work, which creates an iterated game that pushes the equilibrium for everyone toward working more. there's no practical way to mitigate this powerful, arguably inate, incentive. The trick here is to make sure those who don't push for the incentives are taken care of. You need to make sure everyone participating at the sane rates are taken care of in their needs and…

yah, that's why ultimately the better focus is on a more equitable (but not equal) distribution of pay and wealth. worrying about the number of hours in a work week (or even minimum wage, in the long run) is a distraction in this regard (popular distractions on hn and elsewhere, by how well received such misguided ideas seem to be). we should be making labor markets radically transparent for workers, and legislatively shifting power to humans over amoral corporate entities. companies should be working for the people at large, not the other way around. once you accumulate about $2-10MM in assets, you've won the economy and we should make it steeply, progressively harder (but not impossible) to accumulate more. this also has the nice side effect of making the economy more dynamic and resilient, while also fostering more innovation all around.