Imperial Delusions • Hacker News Board

Re: Imperial Delusions

#21

Post by inglor_cz » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 8:16 PM UTC

hkt wrote: post #11

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

It tells me really quite a lot that your response to an article about the British empire is to bash Europe. There is no "EU Empire" any more than the US is an empire composed of its states. The fact is that the EU is a political entity which confers (nominal) equality on its members. There's no colonial style relationship there at all. Nobody is being robbed of their rights except British people who can't use the ECJ…

Have you mistaken me for a Brit? I am not and I never even visited Britain in my life.

From a random Czech point of view, EU is the most relevant big entity involved in my life right now, so of course it is on my mind, especially when the ideas of moral purpose and historical necessity are explicitly mentioned. That is the tenor of the pro-EU argumentation, yes.

As far as colonial style relationships go ... once again: this is an economic empire built on money and thus the colonial style relationships are built on money as well. Just look at the internal flows of money within the Union. A lot of the total profit accrues to big holdings in a few countries.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#22

Post by Bronze_Colossus » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 8:17 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

I do not see the EU even close as an empire. Are you perhaps British? Or Greek? The EU don't even have a common foreign policy or a cohesive monetary policy across its member countries. The EU is imo a protective "members only club" if you're in you get good deals if you're not then tough luck.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#23

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 8:18 PM UTC

hkt wrote: post #11

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

It tells me really quite a lot that your response to an article about the British empire is to bash Europe. There is no "EU Empire" any more than the US is an empire composed of its states. The fact is that the EU is a political entity which confers (nominal) equality on its members. There's no colonial style relationship there at all. Nobody is being robbed of their rights except British people who can't use the ECJ…

[deleted]

Re: Imperial Delusions

#24

Post by the-dude » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 8:19 PM UTC

Bronze_Colossus wrote: post #22

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

I do not see the EU even close as an empire. Are you perhaps British? Or Greek? The EU don't even have a common foreign policy or a cohesive monetary policy across its member countries. The EU is imo a protective "members only club" if you're in you get good deals if you're not then tough luck.

My guess he is Czech. I have heard similar sentiments from former East Bloc's.

I can't blame 'em.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#25

Post by inglor_cz » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 8:20 PM UTC

derriz wrote: post #17

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

Well it's very incidental. The EU is a completely voluntary association. There are those that left freely and there are others who want to join and its powers and purpose is driven by treaties agreed by all members. Being a colony of the British empire was nothing like this and the quote explains a justification for expansionist military imperial behaviour which has no analogue that I can see in the way the EU was fo…

"The EU is a completely voluntary association."

Not for the members who accepted euro as a currency. There is literally no legal way out of the euro, it is meant to last forever. And a country leaving the EU, but staying in the eurozone as a full member is a completely unchartered territory.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#26

Post by inglor_cz » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 8:21 PM UTC

DetroitThrow wrote: post #18

senthil_rajasek wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think India is building an empire? I believe that they are focussed on lifting their masses out of poverty.

I think his point was demonstrating that the EU and militaristic and colonial empire of the former UK have very limited similarities other than they both represent entities with international economic power to some degree. A ridiculous notion in the context of history and reality. He goes on to ask "what's your point?" which leads me to believe he knows how ridiculous his comparison is but is just making it in bad fa…

"making it in bad faith. "

No, I wanted him to actually list some counterpoints, not just asking pointed questions without concrete points. You cannot answer a "Ha, have you heard of X?" question in any meaningful way.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#27

Post by inglor_cz » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

throwawaygh wrote: post #15

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

> economic hostility towards outsiders Completely incomparable. Economic protectionism vs. invading, colonizing, and enslaving huge portions of the world.

Times have changed, methods have changed, too.

Google does not invade or colonize anyone and yet their control over spread of information is probably better than whatever former great powers could boast.

In the same way, countries like Greece can be kicked around by troika without a single shot fired.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#28

Post by fulafel » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #25

derriz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's very incidental. The EU is a completely voluntary association. There are those that left freely and there are others who want to join and its powers and purpose is driven by treaties agreed by all members. Being a colony of the British empire was nothing like this and the quote explains a justification for expansionist military imperial behaviour which has no analogue that I can see in the way the EU was fo…

"The EU is a completely voluntary association." Not for the members who accepted euro as a currency. There is literally no legal way out of the euro, it is meant to last forever. And a country leaving the EU, but staying in the eurozone as a full member is a completely unchartered territory.

Sovereign countries can exit anything they decide to, unless overpowered by force.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#29

Post by TazeTSchnitzel » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 8:24 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

The EU is an interesting creature. It's not exactly an empire, but it's not quite not an empire either (both when you look at intra-EU relations and relations with third countries), and it is definitely a club of many former imperial powers who get to collectively set global policy.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#30

Post by inglor_cz » Sat, Jul 17, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #19

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

I am no great fan of the EU, but the EU as a whole does not engage in much imperialism, besides that forced on it by the US.

Look at the Western Balkans. Russia, China, Turkey and the EU play a game of influence there, leading to some very weird spending. Given how the region usually works, bribes must be involved.

This definitely looks like low-key imperialism, because the EU does not really have a reason to pay for an absurdly expensive Chinese-built highway in Montenegro, other than limiting influence of a competing power in that territory.