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Imperial Delusions

nybooks.com

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Re: Imperial Delusions

#11

Post by hkt »

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

It tells me really quite a lot that your response to an article about the British empire is to bash Europe.

There is no "EU Empire" any more than the US is an empire composed of its states. The fact is that the EU is a political entity which confers (nominal) equality on its members. There's no colonial style relationship there at all. Nobody is being robbed of their rights except British people who can't use the ECJ anymore.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#12

Post by lucian1900 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

That’s certainly part of it.

But the EU is certainly an imperialist block in the purely economic sense as well, just like the US or Britain. After all, wealth is extracted towards the centre through the low wages of workers in the periphery (especially Eastern Europe).

Re: Imperial Delusions

#13

Post by mwfunk »

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

As long as "money" means "everyone's money" and not "money for oligarchs", then that's infinitely better than what nations and empires have historically been built on: ethnicity, religion, geography, tribal identity, etc. You basically described every modern nation since 1776, and explained the purpose of international trade agreements. Governments (ideally) exist to allow everyone to coexist and peacefully do business with each other and not hurt each other, and ideally the only points of contention are drawing the lines at which people are considering to be hurting one another. Ideally. In practice everyone falls short of course, but that's why ideals exist, to have goals to try to live up to.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#14

Post by rantwasp »

inglor_cz wrote: post #7
hardlianotion wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The British Empire was a pretty good go at building a money-focussed empire

True, but they willingly resorted to raw force if deemed necessary. I wonder if the EU is going to cross that Rubicon one day, too. There is a significant ideological penalty against it, because one of the founding ideas is that cooperation prevents wars.

the EU is not an empire. and it’s members are loosely coupled at best. Look at what happened to the UK: they just got their toys and left.

the EU just does not have the cohesion to act like and empire and conquer anything. It’s more like a big market

Re: Imperial Delusions

#15

Post by throwawaygh »

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

> economic hostility towards outsiders

Completely incomparable. Economic protectionism vs. invading, colonizing, and enslaving huge portions of the world.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#16

Post by locallost »

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

I'd say almost all countries hold this view that what they do is justified by good intent, their higher moral values etc, whereas it doesn't apply to others. But it only becomes relevant if the country has actual power. The colonial Britain obviously had a lot of power so it's easy to find examples of "imperial delusions". The same is true for other countries today, or a union of countries. But the actual countries that are delusional change based on how much power they have at that time.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#17

Post by derriz »

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

Well it's very incidental. The EU is a completely voluntary association. There are those that left freely and there are others who want to join and its powers and purpose is driven by treaties agreed by all members.

Being a colony of the British empire was nothing like this and the quote explains a justification for expansionist military imperial behaviour which has no analogue that I can see in the way the EU was formed.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#18

Post by DetroitThrow »

senthil_rajasek wrote: post #9
bserge wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah? Heard of the USA, China, India, Russia and pretty much any other regional and world power ever?

What makes you think India is building an empire? I believe that they are focussed on lifting their masses out of poverty.

I think his point was demonstrating that the EU and militaristic and colonial empire of the former UK have very limited similarities other than they both represent entities with international economic power to some degree. A ridiculous notion in the context of history and reality.

He goes on to ask "what's your point?" which leads me to believe he knows how ridiculous his comparison is but is just making it in bad faith.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#19

Post by mustafa_pasi »

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

"ideology of moral purpose and historical necessity" Incidentally, that sounds a lot like the ideology that sustains the existence of the EU now. Of course, the EU empire works in a different way; economic hostility towards outsiders (high tariffs and compliance cost when importing anything), access to a big common market and a lot of subventions for the insiders. It might be the first attempt to build an empire on m…

I am no great fan of the EU, but the EU as a whole does not engage in much imperialism, besides that forced on it by the US.

Re: Imperial Delusions

#20

Post by robertlagrant »

inglor_cz wrote: post #7
hardlianotion wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The British Empire was a pretty good go at building a money-focussed empire

True, but they willingly resorted to raw force if deemed necessary. I wonder if the EU is going to cross that Rubicon one day, too. There is a significant ideological penalty against it, because one of the founding ideas is that cooperation prevents wars.

Every country resorts to force if it deems it necessary.
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