Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine • Hacker News Board

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#141

Post by dogorman » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 7:32 AM UTC

rootsudo wrote: post #119

jtsuken wrote: post #92

Gambling should be a compulsory subject in primary school. By the time they reach high school: - Every kid should know how to play blackjack and poker. - Every kid must know how to compute the odds of winning. - Every kid should know how to verify the odds presented to them. - Every kid should know at least three ways of cheating and being cheated This might make the earth population a bit more resistant to panic and…

They do, it's called probability and statistics. Doesn't mean kids care. Or teachers, or parents.

> By the time they reach high school: Every kid should know [statistics]

Maybe things have changed. But when I was in highschool in America in the early 00s, statistics was an optional math class offered to juniors. Nobody had taken stats before reaching highschool, which is what the GP calls for, and kids in the "artistic track" weren't required to take stats at all.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#142

Post by dogorman » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 7:43 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #100

BrissyCoder wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be fair, kids don’t care about cheap plastic, and they love flashing lights and sounds. People love all kinds shit that is objectively bad for them... sugar, heroin, gambling, cryptocurrency. > Expensive plastic toys have the same flashing lights and sounds. The cheap adjective was unnecessary.

Sugar isn't "objectively bad" in moderation. Gambling might be bad if you only look at the expected (monetary) value, but if you factor entertainment value it might be okay.

> Sugar isn't "objectively bad" in moderation

Can't the same be said of heroin, which in the UK is prescribed as a medication under the name diamorphine? Both of these substances can be safe in limited quantities, and both of them exploit vulnerabilities in human physiology or psychology that results in over-consumption being a very common outcome. One of them is strictly regulated when not banned outright, but the other is freely given to any kid who has spare pocket change, no questions asked.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#143

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 7:50 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #93

and the conversion kit (which “allows an operator of a Key Master game to convert the game” to a skill-based one) I wonder what the "conversion kit" contains, since any one with a software background probably knows that it may take nothing more than patching out a single "don't let player win yet" conditional jump in the software/firmware. Indeed, the code skill-based game would be simpler from that perspective, sinc…

I'm gonna guess the "kit" is a jumper, and a piece of paper telling you where to plug it, and the code has the payout-tracking mechanism gated with a conditional checking voltage on a pin that's bridged by that jumper.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#144

Post by Uberphallus » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 8:01 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #137

Uberphallus wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're certainly scummy but, I mean, this isn't any different from the claw crane machines that are usually exempted from gambling laws under certain conditions (win chance, prize value, where they're located, etc); machines that nobody expects to be fair.

> machines that nobody expects to be fair I for sure did. In fact, on my long list of "someday/maybe" projects, there was this one entry sitting for some 15 years now: build a little machine for the claw crane game, that would time a button press perfectly. I just saw the video where Mark Rober does this to another arcade game[0], so I won't bother anymore - I can already guess the outcome. I also don't know anyone e…

> I also don't know anyone else in my circles who thought the claw crane was a game of chance.

Maybe it's cultural/regional? Everyone around me gets explained they're rigged as a kid (I'm late 30s), maybe in your country they prefer to feed the excitement/illusion of kids?

I'm Spanish, and we have a saying that goes "fallar más que una escopeta de feria", roughly translated to "failing (to work properly) even more than a gun from a fair", as said guns are popularly known to be purposely misaligned, or to use pellets of lower caliber than the barrel to make them lose accuracy. So generally very few people, and almost exclusively kids, show any trust towards fair/arcade games with prizes. They may still play for fun or to burn unwanted change, though.

On the other hand, many people around me needed to reach adulthood to start suspecting WWE fights aren't real.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#145

Post by jsbdk » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 8:04 AM UTC

Uberphallus wrote: post #140

garethsaxby wrote: post #48

I remember a long time ago in the UK, around 2003 or so, there was a similar problem with Fruit Machines (Slot machines found in UK bars and pubs). Through dumping the ROMs and emulating the machines, it was found that the machines were effectively forcing losses at certain points in gameplay; from the same memory state, you bet high and the machine goes low, or you bet low and the machine goes high, giving you zero…

Interesting. In Spain first the state takes a cut from the moment a coin goes in, and from the remainder they're bound to return 65% of the money collected, minumum. The machines have a government-certified black box to perform this accounting. Now, the law doesn't say anything about prize structure, and it's common knowledge that big prizes tend to appear within 10 plays when it's "cooled down", because machines inc…

I also remember they have a sticker with the chances of winning.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#146

Post by gadders » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 8:17 AM UTC

rubyn00bie wrote: post #63

Oh, I thought this was known. I'm not even joking... A few years ago, I was at a local comic shop, and I watched someone (a kid) play the machine and appear to get a "perfect" shot, key went exactly into the fucking hole... but then it just pulled back. No prize! I was stunned when the kid asked an employee essentially "WTF?" and the employee replied "there's a chance the key may not turn even though it's lined up."…

The claw machines doing this as well now. If it's not your turn to win the grabber is weaker than normal.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#147

Post by idonotknowwhy » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 8:18 AM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #87

megameter wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like with gambling devices, redemption games all seem to have operator-adjustable payout. I recall playing "Stacker" for a little while in the 2000's. It used an LED dot display for gameplay, which was a simple timing game where you "built" a tower by stacking up the blocks, with it getting faster at each level. What it did was exactly as you describe: it had a minor reward level that you could always win, and then a…

where the game would cheat and instantly warp the block ahead to make you lose. Thanks to the Internet, this has been recorded on video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofEb9fM8m0Q

This annoys me, i spent most of my poket money on these when I was a kid, after my friend "won" an xbox

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#148

Post by laumars » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 8:24 AM UTC

rubyn00bie wrote: post #63

Oh, I thought this was known. I'm not even joking... A few years ago, I was at a local comic shop, and I watched someone (a kid) play the machine and appear to get a "perfect" shot, key went exactly into the fucking hole... but then it just pulled back. No prize! I was stunned when the kid asked an employee essentially "WTF?" and the employee replied "there's a chance the key may not turn even though it's lined up."…

I wish modern arcades were banned. They’re nothing more than fruit machines that target kids. There’s no thought about enjoyment, it’s literally about the fastest way to hook a child.

I know the arcades of old weren’t exactly innocent either, with many being optimised to consume the players coins, but at least there was some game play involved. At least the player got something out of the experience.

I feel the ethical line has truly been crossed in terms of what kind of machine is suitable for children.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#149

Post by pelorat » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 8:25 AM UTC

Claw machines are rigged as well. Not with a count of 700 but still there's a counter. Performing the equivalent of "card counting" on these types of machines are a hobby for some.

Re: Sega sued for ‘rigged’ arcade machine

#150

Post by distances » Thu, Jul 15, 2021, 8:26 AM UTC

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #115

koz1000 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked on a redemption device a long time ago, one of those "stop the lights" game for a large manufacturer. There were a few jurisdictions, Iowa and New Jersey come to mind, that were already aware of the nature of these machines and required the manufacturers to have their software audited and validated by (state approved) third-party gaming labs identical to what the slot machine companies do when getting code a…

The problem is not the payout probability being fixed or variable. The problem is a lot of these machines suggest they are skill-based when they are really skill and luck based.

I don't think you can call it luck when the machine is programmed to explicitly not give a win until a number of games. It's not luck, it's not odds. There's zero chance of a win until the condition is reached.