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One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

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Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#111

Post by shadowgovt »

enriquto wrote: post #107
shadowgovt wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 1% definitely skim more, but the entire American economy benefits from China trade. Every single item stamped "Made in China" gets more expensive if the scale of embargo or sanctions were attempted that would have political impact on China. It's easier to count the shelves in Walmart that aren't full of those products than the shelves that are. Wall street would feel it, but the impact on "main street" would also…

Your argument works the same regardless of the atrocities committed by your trading partner . At some point the citizens of your country will need to decide wether their economic well-being merits bearing that responsibility.

I completely agree.

Unfortunately, this is the United States we're talking about. Not to be unnecessarily morbid, but I think if one is waiting for the United States to decide the atrocities of an economic partner justify ending the economic partnership at major domestic economic cost, one will be waiting for a long time. The last time the US did something internationally that caused major domestic pain was the Vietnam War. The lesson the country seems to have learned was that it was not worth it. All subsequent international interventions have either been massively asymmetrical power situations or low-domestic-cost affairs.

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#112

Post by dirtyid »

benrbray wrote: post #14
nomoreplease wrote: post #6

After visiting Auschwitz, I expected (or maybe hoped) that the world would never let it happen again. “How could they do this?”, People asked. “That would never happen today” people murmured. Yet, here we are. Reading the 15th article about it, while the White House deletes tweets that likely anger the CCP They should be removed from most favored nation status. Governments could do a lot more but don’t

It's heart-breaking to see many of my Chinese friends / peers keep their heads in the sand about this. Usually they'll fall silent the topic arises. At most, they'll say something about cultural differences and social cohesion and that as an American I just couldn't possibly understand. If I press them on it they'll mention the Japanese internment camps in WWII, and I'll agree with them that it was awful and that my…

>But I've never heard this shame reciprocated.

Maybe in 100 years with benefit of hindsight, even then for performative reconciliation, such are nature of these things. A Chinese person with connection to east&west understands five years of XJ securitization that affects less than 1% of population eliminated previously regular extremist terrorist attacks with heavy sticks like internment / reducation but also carrots like development and vocational training. It's the best of a terrible situation. Meanwhile, US+coalition just exited one ME forever war, with others ongoing, many indigenous communities in west don't have running water and US for profit industrial complex jails more blacks as proportion of their population than the wildest wested funded thinktank extrapolations for XJ internmen. All without meaningful reconciliation in sight, and to the relative indifference of the "global community" that's strangely engaged in how PRC mistreats a domestic muslim minority.

The TL;DR: is Chinese with dual perspective of how US/west and PRC prosecuted their war on terror hold their opinions after considered evaluation, they're silent because it's un/counter-productive to discuss with their western friends whose heads are in sand due to western propaganda. Most are tired of such westerners, majority of whom only get exposed to narrative from one side keeps asserting they wish their Chinese peers knew better. What the last few years of US manufactured consent campaigns about XJ/HK etc. has taught most Chinese (a lesson previously learned by diasphora of many global south previously targetted by US) is that free fifth estate and disucssion creates more dangerous brainwashed individuals that are both self-righteous and oblivious to their ignorance. There's no point in engaging.

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#113

Post by Chris2048 »

deregulateMed wrote: post #16
Chris2048 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's "they", or "the world"? Do we have a world government already? You either interfere (on a global scale) in the sovereignty of other nations, or you don't. Hitler was only stopped after a very costly war. How would any alliance have the disproportionate resources to police the globe, while allowing free trade and the distributed opportunity that allows any nations to get rich enough to challenge them? You talk o…

Tariffs over intellectual property wasn't enough or aimed at the correct problem. How hard would it be to ban trade with China? I know automotive tooling is inside china and impossible to get out, but if it costs 4 trillion dollars, it's still less expensive than coronavirus. I say all of that, then get embarrassed at the evils my government committed over the years.

> How hard would it be to ban trade with China?

Very easy. That doesn't mean the rest of the world will play ball.

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#114

Post by Chris2048 »

tomjen3 wrote: post #49
Chris2048 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's "they", or "the world"? Do we have a world government already? You either interfere (on a global scale) in the sovereignty of other nations, or you don't. Hitler was only stopped after a very costly war. How would any alliance have the disproportionate resources to police the globe, while allowing free trade and the distributed opportunity that allows any nations to get rich enough to challenge them? You talk o…

You don't have to go to war over this. If the west put the same sanctions on Chinas as it did on Iran China would be forced to step down.

You put sanctions on China, China puts sanctions on you. Then may small asian/eastern countries will be forced to choose sides, and you'll have fewer allies/footholds when China doesn't step down.

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#115

Post by fencepost »

rideontime wrote: post #84
fencepost wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now under their "Most Popular" column, the top article has "Trump" in it. Trump has been out of office for over 6 months, Have you somehow failed to notice that the former guy is both legitimately significant in the news (legal troubles, ongoing "fraudit" movements) and the defacto leader of US Republicans?

Every time I see "the former guy" I read it as "he who must not be named." What is the origin of this and why do people do it?

I'm not sure where I picked it up, but others have noted the likely origin of the phrase.

I actually almost never use it because it's pretty rare for me to need to refer to the former president, but there's a definite element of response to the reality-detached individuals[0] who've somehow been convinced that he's still president and is simply laying low until somehow he magically resumes office through some as-yet-unexplained mechanism.

I remain quite relieved that I no longer need to be concerned on a day-to-day basis which individuals, countries, ethnicities, companies, planets or star systems our president has insulted, mocked or outright attacked in word or deed.

[0] originally "wackjobs"

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#116

Post by jiaaro »

lupire wrote: post #25
nomoreplease wrote: post #6

After visiting Auschwitz, I expected (or maybe hoped) that the world would never let it happen again. “How could they do this?”, People asked. “That would never happen today” people murmured. Yet, here we are. Reading the 15th article about it, while the White House deletes tweets that likely anger the CCP They should be removed from most favored nation status. Governments could do a lot more but don’t

The name World War Two was a pretty big clue that humanity as a whole doesn't learn from its mistakes.

The handling of Germany after WWII was pretty different than WWI. Perhaps a clue it’s more complicated

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#117

Post by c1ccccc1 »

yunohn wrote: post #55
benrbray wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's heart-breaking to see many of my Chinese friends / peers keep their heads in the sand about this. Usually they'll fall silent the topic arises. At most, they'll say something about cultural differences and social cohesion and that as an American I just couldn't possibly understand. If I press them on it they'll mention the Japanese internment camps in WWII, and I'll agree with them that it was awful and that my…

> I'll agree with them that it was awful and that my country has done evil things that I am ashamed of I think what a lot of the non-West feels is that the West has done horrible things, benefited from it, and continues to commit modern colonialism and direct/indirect exploitation of developing countries to continually benefit from them. The dissonance is in thinking that the West is no longer doing these things and…

A utilitarian perspective is probably more productive than worrying about who has the moral high ground in any case. The fact is that the situation in Xinjiang is terrible and seems to be getting worse. The question is what can be done about it. For the Chinese government, the answer is simple: Close down the internment camps, and let the people go home. But the Chinese government isn't likely to read this comment, and even less likely to act on its advice. For other countries, the available actions will be more indirect. I think we should focus on getting as many Uyghurs out of the country as possible. This would require other countries to take them in as refugees or immigrants. It would also require some way of getting them physically out of China, which would be easier with the cooperation of the Chinese government. In theory, if China views the Uyghurs as a kind of nuisance, it should easily agree to let them leave for greener pastures, but in practice that doesn't seems to be the case. Perhaps the worry is that they will badmouth China once they leave. It's probably more complicated than that, but definitely worth pondering on with so many lives at stake.

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#118

Post by yunohn »

c1ccccc1 wrote: post #117
yunohn wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll agree with them that it was awful and that my country has done evil things that I am ashamed of I think what a lot of the non-West feels is that the West has done horrible things, benefited from it, and continues to commit modern colonialism and direct/indirect exploitation of developing countries to continually benefit from them. The dissonance is in thinking that the West is no longer doing these things and…

A utilitarian perspective is probably more productive than worrying about who has the moral high ground in any case. The fact is that the situation in Xinjiang is terrible and seems to be getting worse. The question is what can be done about it. For the Chinese government, the answer is simple: Close down the internment camps, and let the people go home. But the Chinese government isn't likely to read this comment, a…

> A utilitarian perspective is probably more productive than worrying about who has the moral high ground in any case.

While I agree with this, the OP was commenting about how their friends turn away when the issue is brought up, and comparing how OP reacts to similar crimes about their own country. So, that’s a point I felt warranted to discuss.

More generally, historically, colonization has always been about “taming the savages” and “teaching them (Western) morality”. Slavery and exploitation went hand in hand with this mindset.

Re: One by One, My Friends Were Sent to the Camps

#119

Post by c1ccccc1 »

dirtyid wrote: post #112
benrbray wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's heart-breaking to see many of my Chinese friends / peers keep their heads in the sand about this. Usually they'll fall silent the topic arises. At most, they'll say something about cultural differences and social cohesion and that as an American I just couldn't possibly understand. If I press them on it they'll mention the Japanese internment camps in WWII, and I'll agree with them that it was awful and that my…

>But I've never heard this shame reciprocated. Maybe in 100 years with benefit of hindsight, even then for performative reconciliation, such are nature of these things. A Chinese person with connection to east&west understands five years of XJ securitization that affects less than 1% of population eliminated previously regular extremist terrorist attacks with heavy sticks like internment / reducation but also carrots…

You say that China's current policy towards the Uyghurs is the "best of a terrible situation". The word "best" implies a search through all possible alternatives. So walk me through the optimization process that recommends the current policy, if you will, because it seems to my naive intuition that there were plenty of better options. Terrorism is the killing of civilians as an act of war, i.e. it's a subcategory of murder, which is highly illegal. Why were the usual law enforcement and justice systems ineffective here, lack of resources? Building large numbers of concentration camps seems very expensive, why not devote those resources to beefing up law enforcement and security? Also, Tahir Izgil and his friends and family don't appear to be mass-murderers, so what's the anti-terror benefit in locking them (and so many other innocent people) up? For that matter, what's the anti-terror benefit in making it so hard for them to leave China? If Uyghurs are considered to be such a problematic minority, why not let them simply leave?
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