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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#481

Post by filoleg »

lordnacho wrote: post #405
castlecrasher2 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine most would agree that the phrase "live through their kids" has a negative connotation and "caring about someone" does not.

Fair enough, I'm probably in minority. I don't see anything wrong with living through the kids, for me it's just one way to explore the world.

Imo there is nothing wrong with it, but only if you are truly "exploring the world" in a sense of being an observer and trying to take in what your kid is experiencing, while providing advice and guidance if needed.

Where it starts being wrong is when people take "living through my kids" as "controlling and demanding my kids live the way I imagine I would have wanted to live, if I was in their shoes now".

Note: when I say "kids", I mean someone's children who are already adults and have their own life to live. I am not trying to say that kindergarten-aged children should be given full freedom to make their own life decisions and that any attempt to infringe on that is wrong.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#482

Post by reader_mode »

robryan wrote: post #425
reader_mode wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think more people should choose not to have kids and our societies/governments should stop pushing so hard to have more due to traditional values or so economies can grow. If your retirement plan is point blank shotgun than this is sustainable. Otherwise pray for automation, depending on how old you are, it might work out.

It is a pyramid scheme though, each generation needing to be bigger than the last to support the previous generations retirement. It has to end at some point.

Not really - you can increase productivity, the end game of that being full automation.

Lifespans are increasing and automation claims turned out over optimistic so far - if you are close to retirement the last thing you want to see is a shrinking working population, shortages and inflation.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#483

Post by [deleted] »

loudtieblahblah wrote: post #327
jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

My parents...are a mixed bag. They weren't or aren't abusive. At least, not physically or sexually or anything like that. Emotionally...that depends on how you want to interpret events and what your perspective is. But.... there's a gigantic cultural (rural vs suburban), generational (Xenial/Milennial vs Boomer), political (die hard Republicans vs Greenwald-esque progressives) and religious (baptist vs atheist) divid…

[deleted]

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#485

Post by desmosxxx »

Kluny wrote: post #475
nradov wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adversity might not create strength but it certainly filters out weakness.

That statement comes with the implication that strength is something intrinsic and static. That's not true - you get strong when you train, but you have to train gently and gradually enough to not get injured. You train yourself to be physically fit, but if you push too hard you will sprain tendons and break bones. You can also train yourself to be gentle, and if you push it too hard, you'll be taken advantage of. Yo…

i.e. they were too weak. strength/weakness in this sense has little to do with morality. someone who can't rise to the occasion or hasn't grown enough isn't a bad person or anything, just unprepared or ill suited. e.g. a natural selection even doesn't care if an organism was still growing and learning. They either survive (strong) or die (weak). And that's the same definition of strong being used here.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#486

Post by teawrecks »

As a 30-something who moved 2000 miles away from their parents and mostly only talks to them on holidays, I could see how it seems like I am the one neglecting them. But from my POV I feel like I am the one who is neglected.

My whole life my parents don't enjoy actual conversation with me. They get tense and irritated at the possibility of not knowing something, so they only ever want to state things that happened in their lives, and have me do the same. Anything resembling critical thinking is not welcome. Even worse, if the topic even slightly verges into the political realm, they just start spewing whatever line Fox or OANN are shilling that week. And I've learned that all I'm allowed to do in response is be silent or agree, because if I'm critical of them at all, I run the risk of them being so offended that they stop talking to ME for a while.

Another element at play is that my mental recollection of how my parents got along with their parents is nothing like this. From my POV my parents and grandparents always saw things mostly the same, were very supportive of each other, and were very involved in each others' lives up until my grandparents passed away. I just don't feel like I even live in the same world as my parents.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#487

Post by paulddraper »

Angostura wrote: post #303
jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

When I went to university, my parents simply asked me to call them once a week on Sunday at around 10am, which I did pretyt much every week and carried on doing for the rest of their lives until they died a couple of years ago in their 90s. The calls were pretty consequential and really not verty long, quite often just 20 minutes but over the years they morphed from the being worried about me, to me being worried abo…

When I left for college, we did a weekly Sunday 30 min Skype call.

I'm the oldest of five. This pattern then continued and now my parents and my siblings and their families have that group call with everyone every week.

It's really helped us stay connected. You can't stay close to someone if you never talk to them. And a live interaction is superior to Facebook, etc

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#488

Post by navane »

rednerrus wrote: post #407
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Lots of people are massively fucked up and still have kids anyway, either accidentally or otherwise. And then their kids are put at a massive disadvantage in life and in human relationships." This is an interesting one, and in direct contradiction to the adage: "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” My life experience agrees, tough…

Most emotional damage that I've seen comes in the good times phase. That's when genx's parents were born. In the good times everyone is free to do as they please and have to find their own meaning, this creates weak men. Weak men create hard times. We're entering the really hard times now. When things really go to shit, you'll find your purpose and have to rely on others. That creates strength and good times, eventua…

Genx parents were born in 1925-45. Those were not good times.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#489

Post by moate »

LordHumungous wrote: post #342
jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

Yeah it does seem like many of the "no contact" people are themselves childless. I doubt this is a coincidence.

Which do you think is the causal effect: not having children causes it easier to break from the parents, or having terrible parents that cause estrangement makes people less inclined to have their own children?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#490

Post by civilian »

pjc50 wrote: post #430
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #424

24/7 bombardment with conspiracy theories and partisan political nonsense through television and the internet has turned the relationships and bonds in my extended family into weird factions of outrage addicts that are basically impossible to interact with for any extended amount of time unless you similarly develop a fondness for their flavor of outrage or for their passive aggression for when you don't. It's exhaus…

There's a lot of "Fox News robbed me of my parents" stories out there. https://www.salon.com/2014/02/27/i_lost_my_dad_to_fox_news_h... (2014, situation has generally got worse!) https://captainawkward.com/2020/12/09/1304-fox-news-stole-my...

MSNBC robbed me of an uncle :(
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