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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

theatlantic.com

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#411

Post by reader_mode »

frankish wrote: post #373

I will try not to complain about my parents, but one of the big side-effects is that I do not want kids and have had a vasectomy to prevent that. Not the only reason, but a relevant one. I think more people should choose not to have kids and our societies/governments should stop pushing so hard to have more due to traditional values or so economies can grow. It is time for us to focus on quality and not quantity. I t…

>I think more people should choose not to have kids and our societies/governments should stop pushing so hard to have more due to traditional values or so economies can grow.

If your retirement plan is point blank shotgun than this is sustainable. Otherwise pray for automation, depending on how old you are, it might work out.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#412

Post by spideymans »

iammisc wrote: post #152
throwaway284534 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, thanks for replying. I can’t say I agree with your reasoning though. I’ve seen first hand what kind of damage a generational chain does to a family. Daughters hating their mothers until their dying breath, only to carry that same trauma into a strained relationship with their children. The cycle repeats until a grown child decides to either consciously change this behavior with their own children, or distance th…

> Not to be too dramatic, I believe abusive parents will metaphorically poison their families well beyond their own lives. Cutting that rot out of the tree is sometimes a way to save the healthier branches. Thanks for the reply. You are labeling any kind of deference towards your parents as abuse. Do you not see the absolutism and extremism in your statement? Nowhere did I say children should tolerate abuse. I just s…

>You are labeling any kind of deference towards your parents as abuse

Deference is earned.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#413

Post by EvilEy3 »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #255
shadowoflight wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. Alternate take on that human universal: your parents had unprotected sex and fulfilled their obligation to raise the offspring produced to adulthood, this obliges you to nothing. I'm not saying this means everyone should estrange thei…

In reality, no one owes anyone anything. That doesn’t make it ideal or justified. Turns out that’s a bad way to structure a society and being hyper individualistic just ends up in your society collapsing.

What makes you think society is more important than individual?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#414

Post by landryraccoon »

cronix wrote: post #218
wonderwonder wrote: post #36

Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. Everyone has flaws and no one has all the answers. Parents are just people doing the best they can and for the most part making what they…

That, and the "news." If you watch CNN/MSNBC/NBC/CBS/ABC/PBS you are led to think that anyone who supports Republicans is the devil and only show things that support that viewpoint. You rarely see them agree with anything the Republican put forth. If you watch FOX/OAN or other similar networks, you are led to think that anyone who supports the Democrats are the devil. You rarely see anything in a positive light. It's…

I don't think false centrism or compromise for the sake of compromise is beneficial here.

Let's take the most clear example.

Who legitimately won the 2020 US Presidential Election?

Did Biden win the election fairly and legitimately or not?

Does your position permit "splitting the difference"? How would that work? Are you advocating that we meet in the middle and say Biden won but not legitimately? Or that Trump lost but it wasn't a fair election?

Some positions just don't work like that. OAN won't simply say that Biden is the legitimately elected President. What do you propose is the appropriate "compromise" solution in this case?

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#415

Post by frankish »

hcurtiss wrote: post #388
frankish wrote: post #373

I will try not to complain about my parents, but one of the big side-effects is that I do not want kids and have had a vasectomy to prevent that. Not the only reason, but a relevant one. I think more people should choose not to have kids and our societies/governments should stop pushing so hard to have more due to traditional values or so economies can grow. It is time for us to focus on quality and not quantity. I t…

You seem very thoughtful and set in your calculus. It's probably no help, but for what it's worth, two kids is less than replacement value. Were every couple to have only two kids, the odds are some would die and you would have a shrinking, not growing, population. Having kids, at least in my experience, is a true blessing, and something that I think will bring me great joy for many decades. To each their own, but I…

I do not want to take away any positives from having kids; however, I do think we should strongly consider whether we would actually be good parents and if we would be able to prepare them to live in a world where the bar is raising exponentially. Even if we find fulfillment in children, I question if it is really the best option for them in the long-term or if we may be selfish in our desires to have them.

I think shrinking population is one thing I would like to see. Until we start moving to other planets, I do not see the benefits of a growing population. Many people still live in poverty and lack a good education, which I believe parenting has the most influence on.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#416

Post by holoduke »

jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

The love for a child will always be more than the love for a parent. From the day of birth the child detaches himself from the parent. Every day a little more than the day before. This is a good thing and makes live bearable.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#417

Post by gsich »

nsxwolf wrote: post #372
gsich wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a point, since the foreskin has many nerve endings. You are not doing your sons any favors if you circumcise them when it's not necessary.

I doubt there's much science behind this. Only adult males can really A/B test this, and circumcision of an adult penis may very well risk damage. There's no reason to think uncircumcised males enjoy sex more than those circumcised in infancy.

In parent it was about the "potential", which you can't reach anymore if you are circumcised. Whatever "potential" means. Could just be not having to use lube.

It remains genital mutilation though.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#418

Post by Tade0 »

nsxwolf wrote: post #368
Tade0 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after being sucked in to the anticircumcision movement Did it take a lot of sucking into considering that they've been subjected to genital mutilation?

Considering that I'm circumcised and every male I know is, and none of us even give it a second thought or feel that our genitals have been "mutilated", I would say it requires a bit of sucking. There has to be some existing dissatisfaction or disorder for someone to get so up in arms about that. Anyway, it was an example I saw, I had intended to remain neutral on the subject.

> There has to be some existing dissatisfaction or disorder for someone to get so up in arms about that.

How about undergoing a non-essential and medically unnecessary surgery without your consent? Doesn't that bother you at least a little bit?

I was baptised as an infant and most of the people I know were as well, but I recognize it for what it is - roping me into a membership in an organisation which requires me to jump through many hoops to leave, because it needs the numbers (at least on paper) to maintain power.

Fortunately this is reversible, but circumcision isn't.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#419

Post by EvilEy3 »

jdavis703 wrote: post #214
samatman wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but for many of us in the West, without the tradition common to East and South Asians of reciprocal obligation. This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. I'm as deracinated Westerner as it comes, and yet I'm fairly traditional in this regard. I can think of three acceptabl…

What about people raised by single parents? What do they owe to the absentee parent?

Knocked out teeth.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#420

Post by 1270018080 »

EvilEy3 wrote: post #413
ceilingcorner wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In reality, no one owes anyone anything. That doesn’t make it ideal or justified. Turns out that’s a bad way to structure a society and being hyper individualistic just ends up in your society collapsing.

What makes you think society is more important than individual?

Without society, the best you can do as an individual is forage for food while naked and homeless. A little hyperbolic, but not far off.
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