A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement • Hacker News Board

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#251

Post by triceratops » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 7:47 PM UTC

morpheos137 wrote: post #246

triceratops wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not too much significant has happened over then past decade That's a bold statement, and IMO a very incorrect one. You just can't see it right now because you're too close. Electric cars, batteries, and solar power in general have taken off. Autonomous driving draws ever closer. Covid has changed work culture, education, and lifestyles the world over, probably permanently. And mRNA tech could revolutionize healthca…

most of these things, in my studied opinion, are either insignificant or overhyped. To pick a few examples driverless cars as a usable transportation commodity are no where near close. True AI is no where near close. Spacex is a stunt, not something like inventing AC. Trump was far less significant than Bush II and 9/11, while that was less significant than the fall of communism, and that in turn was less significant…

I suppose time will tell.

IMO the only difference between my examples and yours is the amount of time that has passed, giving us perspective.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#252

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

arrosenberg wrote: post #159

shagie wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. I've been tempted to write a blog post "Toxic Considered Harmful" One of the biggest problems with the toxic label is there isn't anything that can be said in response. Its an attempt to get sympathy and/or end…

The correct response is not to refute the label, it's to explore the feeling and ask what makes them feel that way. I'm sure some people will shut you down at that stage, but most people will open up if they actually want resolution.

But that's exactly the concern, that "toxic" is both hypercharged with negative affect and can't be disputed. Similar labels don't have that problem - I would and do tell friends things like "she's not contrarian, she just has strong beliefs you haven't fully understood".

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#253

Post by mike00632 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

js290 wrote: post #219

Religion & culture keeps most people out of trouble most of the time... "the absence of religion... replaced by all kinds of crazy beliefs... you realize there's no religious fundamentalism that's more irrational than an atheist's primitive use of probability" http://bit.ly/2Hi4pNK

I've witnessed the opposite. Most parents who disown their gay children are encouraged to do so by religious belief.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#254

Post by thereare5lights » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

dragontamer wrote: post #245

thereare5lights wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, your children's property was your property: Isn't that still the case today until the child is past the age of majority? Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v10DWClP7NA

Britney Spears is probably the more important example of that...

Explain

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#255

Post by ceilingcorner » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

shadowoflight wrote: post #229

samatman wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but for many of us in the West, without the tradition common to East and South Asians of reciprocal obligation. This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. I'm as deracinated Westerner as it comes, and yet I'm fairly traditional in this regard. I can think of three acceptabl…

> This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. Alternate take on that human universal: your parents had unprotected sex and fulfilled their obligation to raise the offspring produced to adulthood, this obliges you to nothing. I'm not saying this means everyone should estrange thei…

In reality, no one owes anyone anything. That doesn’t make it ideal or justified.

Turns out that’s a bad way to structure a society and being hyper individualistic just ends up in your society collapsing.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#256

Post by sjg007 » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

rogerclark wrote: post #173

hackeraccount wrote: post #139

We're all living that Asian family joke. Parents spend their whole lives waiting for their kids to thank you. Kids spend their whole lives waiting for their parent to say "I'm sorry." That said I've never felt that way about my Mom and Dad. I've faults and problems a plenty but I wouldn't ascribe any of that on them; indeed the best things about me seem to clearly come from them and the worst are just as clearly thin…

In therapy circles and attachment theory land, this is exactly what's supposed to happen when you receive "good enough parenting". Good enough parenting means your parents actually tried and either worked through any of their issues preventing them from giving care to their children, or didn't have those issues in the first place. So the idea goes, you end up developing a relationship based on mutual respect, love, a…

I agree, and you can see this pass down through the generations. It's even possible to recognize it in yourself and still have trouble because you don't know what else to do. So called default mode behaviors etc...

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#257

Post by michaelmrose » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #181

hackeraccount wrote: post #139

We're all living that Asian family joke. Parents spend their whole lives waiting for their kids to thank you. Kids spend their whole lives waiting for their parent to say "I'm sorry." That said I've never felt that way about my Mom and Dad. I've faults and problems a plenty but I wouldn't ascribe any of that on them; indeed the best things about me seem to clearly come from them and the worst are just as clearly thin…

Yes, but for many of us in the West, without the tradition common to East and South Asians of reciprocal obligation. This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. I'm as deracinated Westerner as it comes, and yet I'm fairly traditional in this regard. I can think of three acceptabl…

Why would someone giving birth to you oblige one to forgive severe physical abuse merely because you are too big to beat up at this point?

It is a bizarre to suppose that love is owed instead of earned or earned once instead of the result of ongoing effort. If you stop feeding your cat or watering your plant it dies same with your relationship.

I would venture to guess that the majority of estranged parents don't know this or in denial about having let the relationship die.

The article says that the majority of parental estrangement is due to divorce especially the non custodial father then successfully segues to some nonsense about identity politics.

I don't see it as a realignment of values so much as a more boring story about parents breaking up and becoming estranged spiced up with a minority becoming estranged because the values they hold are correctly deemed odious and hateful.

If you hate gay people and your kid is either gay or feels strongly about the issue they aren't going to want to be around you.

If you talk about shooting dirty liberals and your kid is a dirty liberal likewise.

If your own kid hates you the first thing you should do is ask yourself why and if you blame it on a lack of family values you are almost certainly the problem.

We both have good relationships with our kids I think you misunderstand why others don't.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#258

Post by inlikealamb » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

Daishiman wrote: post #30

I think if anything, the "shift" is more like an unveiling. There are and have always been extremely problematic issues in many families, it's just that in the past you would be denigrated for severing ties with your family for those reasons due to a sense of duty. So we now finally see the elephant in the room. We cannot go back to unseeing it, but we have to deal with it gracefully. To me this is just the continuin…

I came here to say this. My step-sister's family sticks to the concept of family despite all the women being raped and beaten by their father. They will not address the problem, their mother will not address the problem, and the only way to live in reality is to leave them. They violently attacked her for trying to discuss it on multiple occasions. Their mother continues this even after the death of their father.

They tell everyone they know that she's addicted to drugs and won't talk to them because they want to help her. In reality she's more successful than all of them combined, which she attributes largely to seeking mental health counseling and removing herself from their constant drama.

We're living through a reckoning for abusive people. In the past people were ostracized for cutting off their families for any reason, especially women... but now there's little reason to put up with this kind of bullshit. These cycles of familial abuse reach back generations and it's about time they're addressed.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#259

Post by michaelmrose » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #255

shadowoflight wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This used to be nigh unto a human universal: your parents raise you up from a helpless infant to adulthood, and this obliges you to love and care for them for the rest of their lives. Alternate take on that human universal: your parents had unprotected sex and fulfilled their obligation to raise the offspring produced to adulthood, this obliges you to nothing. I'm not saying this means everyone should estrange thei…

In reality, no one owes anyone anything. That doesn’t make it ideal or justified. Turns out that’s a bad way to structure a society and being hyper individualistic just ends up in your society collapsing.

If society collapses it will be because we ignored existential threats like climate change, nuclear war, biological warfare etc.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#260

Post by nate_meurer » Wed, Jul 14, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

iammisc wrote: post #207

nate_meurer wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you not see the absolutism and extremism in your statement? You mean, like this statement: > Your parents will never be your equals. Sounds pretty extreme and absolutist to me. Are you saying that the mere act of procreation entitles a person to eternal deference from their children regardless of the nature of their relationship to those children? > Parents have looked after you since you were a baby, they're al…

> Sounds pretty extreme and absolutist to me. I am giving a social absolute. Your absolute regarded abuse, a crime, and a serious one at that. A statement being absolute is only concerning if it's also extreme. Labeling deference to parents as abusive is extreme.

What exactly is a "social absolute"?

> Your absolute regarded abuse, a crime, and a serious one at that.

No, there is no crime of "abuse" per se. Take, for example, the constant, relentless degrading and insulting language that one of my friends directed at his son since he was a little boy, which destroyed the kid's self esteem and has now undermined his agency as an adult, resulting in depression and addiction. I continually hear this kid calling himself "stupid", and he's genuinely surprised that he can't stop himself from drinking. Now what crime do you propose his father should be charged with?

My friend now criticizes his adult son for being weak, saying he has only himself to blame for his struggles. Would you advise his son, and all the others like him, to "defer" to his father? Would you apply to this man all the generalizations you've used in this thread, and accuse him of failing to appreciate how his father "looked after" him?

> Labeling deference to parents as abusive is extreme.

The parent comment did no such thing. They said that an abusive parent's expectation of deference can itself constitute abusive behavior. This is not surprising to anyone who's been exposed to abusive relationships: it's common, for example, for abusive husbands to demand deference from their wives, in line with traditional (and often religious) mores. Would you agree with this as well? Or is it only parents who you think deserve unconditional fealty?