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A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

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Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#471

Post by im_down_w_otp »

kevstev wrote: post #450
im_down_w_otp wrote: post #424

24/7 bombardment with conspiracy theories and partisan political nonsense through television and the internet has turned the relationships and bonds in my extended family into weird factions of outrage addicts that are basically impossible to interact with for any extended amount of time unless you similarly develop a fondness for their flavor of outrage or for their passive aggression for when you don't. It's exhaus…

I just posted something very similar, and was surprised to see there were not more comments along this line. My family isn't red, but just in general dealing with them is kind of exhausting. The extended is fine to spend time with, but they are constantly in petty fights with one another and trying to align others to their "side" when I just want to find out who is coming for Thanksgiving and what I should bring. Som…

Yes, absolutely that's a constant component of the "factioneering" as well. My spouse points out that my family tries to use me as Switzerland to broker between their respective dysfunction whenever there's a crisis (e.g. death in the family, financial problems, etc.). There was a point in time where I took that on willingly and dutifully because I'd think, "Well, somebody has to do it." But, as they never took these moments as teachable ones to sort out their own issues with themselves and then consequently with others, I just hit points where I was sacrificing what I loved for what I didn't, and I stopped. It turns out that, nope... somebody actually doesn't have to do it. As long as you can get yourself outside the blast radius, life goes on. I suppose, unfortunately, that then becomes the goal and challenge... how to stay outside the blast radius. Hence, estrangement.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#472

Post by 77pt77 »

pseudalopex wrote: post #110
everdrive wrote: post #26

>Estranged parents often tell me that their adult child is rewriting the history of their childhood, accusing them of things they didn’t do, and/or failing to acknowledge the ways in which the parent demonstrated their love and commitment. Adult children frequently say the parent is gaslighting them by not acknowledging the harm they caused or are still causing, failing to respect their boundaries, and/or being unwil…

Psychologists talked about unintentional gaslighting at least 40 years ago. "The motiva­tion may be conscious, although it is usually unconscious; and almost invariably the conscious motives are rationalizations and/or distortions of deeper, more complex, and less acceptable motives."[1] [1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/21674086.1981.11...

That abstract is nothing but Freudian psychoanalytical lingo.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#473

Post by LordHumungous »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #319
Daishiman wrote: post #30

I think if anything, the "shift" is more like an unveiling. There are and have always been extremely problematic issues in many families, it's just that in the past you would be denigrated for severing ties with your family for those reasons due to a sense of duty. So we now finally see the elephant in the room. We cannot go back to unseeing it, but we have to deal with it gracefully. To me this is just the continuin…

It also might be a reversion to the mean. E.g. One reason ancient Christianity was such a big deal according to historians (and resulted in billions of followers, etc.) was their profoundly different family structure when compared to what was happening in the roman culture and throughout the world. They brought Jewish traditional family structure to the ‘gentiles’ (read: everyone else who wasn’t omitted by blood line…

The Romans emphasized respect for elders in the extreme.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#474

Post by autokad »

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #355
jgilias wrote: post #285

When I was around twenty my Mom used to call me every other day or so just to have a chat. One day, after she asked me how my day was, I shot back something along the lines of: "I don't have anything to tell you, really. You're calling so often that nothing new manages to happen in between the calls." So, she stopped calling. I would go home every other week as usual and everything seemed fine. It was only much later…

I still think of calling my sister once in a while, "Oh, I should tell her that", and it's been ten years. And it still hurts.

yeah happens to me too and about 15 years for me. I also get that "but I thought you died" and "I got better" dream. I am thinking that's convenient, but still, something seems wrong.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#475

Post by Kluny »

nradov wrote: post #437
taddevries wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this is more accurate. "Hard times create weak men, weak men create hard times" I've never believed that adversity creates strength, at least that has not been my experience in life.

Adversity might not create strength but it certainly filters out weakness.

That statement comes with the implication that strength is something intrinsic and static. That's not true - you get strong when you train, but you have to train gently and gradually enough to not get injured. You train yourself to be physically fit, but if you push too hard you will sprain tendons and break bones. You can also train yourself to be gentle, and if you push it too hard, you'll be taken advantage of. You can train yourself to be assertive, but if you push too hard you'll end up being aggressive and alienating people. That's part of growth.

Saying that adversity filters out weakness - no, adversity pushes people too hard before they're ready to handle it, then they fail. Sometimes they try again, sometimes the damage is too great and they give up. That's not a moral failing though. It just means they were pushed too hard.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#476

Post by im_down_w_otp »

LordHumungous wrote: post #465
pjc50 wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of "Fox News robbed me of my parents" stories out there. https://www.salon.com/2014/02/27/i_lost_my_dad_to_fox_news_h... (2014, situation has generally got worse!) https://captainawkward.com/2020/12/09/1304-fox-news-stole-my...

Is it really that hard to just ignore these things when your parents say them? I have Republican parents and I just smile and nod whenever they say something crazy. It's extremely easy.

That really depends on how persistent they are and/or who else is around when they say them.

Small Child, "I want to build a robot that helps sea creatures by keeping plastic out of the ocean."

Grandparent, "What's the point when Iran is just going to nuke us all anyway."

Parent, "Ugh." (spends 5 min. trying to verbally tap dance out of that 'conversation' and then later 30 min. explaining to the child not to listen to their grandparents without telling them to stop listening to their grandparents)

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#477

Post by 01100011 »

wonderwonder wrote: post #36

Wonder how much of this is driven by social media and the internet today. The word 'Toxic' is just thrown around now and everything is 'Toxic'. Its a word that has ceased to have any real meaning but virtually every behavior that used to just be normal every day activity is Toxic. Everyone has flaws and no one has all the answers. Parents are just people doing the best they can and for the most part making what they…

There's a meme going around that says something to the effect that people are just meat with electricity inside. It's obviously a simplistic joke but there's something about it that really resonated with me. I'm trying to keep that in mind now, have compassion for others more, and to basically lower my expectations for the human animal. Sure, we can and do overcome our limitations sometimes, but that's something to be grateful for, not something to be expected.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#478

Post by desmosxxx »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #282
rogerclark wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In therapy circles and attachment theory land, this is exactly what's supposed to happen when you receive "good enough parenting". Good enough parenting means your parents actually tried and either worked through any of their issues preventing them from giving care to their children, or didn't have those issues in the first place. So the idea goes, you end up developing a relationship based on mutual respect, love, a…

> "Lots of people are massively fucked up and still have kids anyway, either accidentally or otherwise. And then their kids are put at a massive disadvantage in life and in human relationships." This is an interesting one, and in direct contradiction to the adage: "Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” My life experience agrees, tough…

I don't think the quote was meant to describe individual experiences, but rather society. Similar to the saying "only the strong survive". Hard times are also a defining function as to what a "strong" person is, and of course the saying says nothing about a "strong" persons emotional troubles.

Re: A shift in American family values is fueling estrangement

#479

Post by panopticon »

lordnacho wrote: post #405
castlecrasher2 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine most would agree that the phrase "live through their kids" has a negative connotation and "caring about someone" does not.

Fair enough, I'm probably in minority. I don't see anything wrong with living through the kids, for me it's just one way to explore the world.

I think a lot of the negative connotation comes from the type of parent that's trying to live out old glory years or missed opportunities through their child by forcing them into a particular sport or activity instead of allowing their child to grow as an individual.
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